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Old March 6th, 2016, 07:00 PM   #241
Verso
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The graphic posted [email protected] shows how the exact 30 km/h is a compromise between cars and pedestrians.
What compromise are you talking about? Cars drive on roads, pedestrians walk on sidewalks. Those few times you need to cross a road, you just need to be a little careful if there's no traffic light.

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I understand someone can dislike the idea but denominating it as 'terrible' while it's being implemented worldwide as successfull sollution is just an ignorance.
I denominated it as terrible, because I dislike the idea.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 07:54 PM   #242
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What compromise are you talking about? Cars drive on roads, pedestrians walk on sidewalks. Those few times you need to cross a road, you just need to be a little careful if there's no traffic light.
Especially, those few times you need to drive a road that somebody might need to cross, you just need to be a little careful. In towns this just happens to be the case more often than elsewhere.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 08:10 PM   #243
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Especially, those few times you need to drive a road that somebody might need to cross, you just need to be a little careful. In towns this just happens to be the case more often than elsewhere.
You usually need to drive over pedestrian crossings much more often than you need to cross a road as a pedestrian. And you can be careful with 50 km/h too. After all, despite pedestrians having priority on pedestrian crossings, it's still a road. You do much more damage to drivers who have to drive 30 km/h than to pedestrians who just need to be a little careful. Remember, if you wanna get somewhere quickly, you don't walk, you take a car. Also, as a pedestrian I'm always careful when crossing a road (and it doesn't bother me), because I know it would hurt me much more than it would hurt the driver that hit me.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 08:33 PM   #244
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you touch on the argument that I find rather droll about chance of survival at impact speeds

I mean, why not just avoid hitting the pedestrian entirely instead of running him over at 30 km/h?
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Old March 6th, 2016, 08:42 PM   #245
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You usually need to drive over pedestrian crossings much more often than you need to cross a road as a pedestrian. And you can be careful with 50 km/h too. After all, despite pedestrians having priority on pedestrian crossings, it's still a road. You do much more damage to drivers who have to drive 30 km/h than to pedestrians who just need to be a little careful. Remember, if you wanna get somewhere quickly, you don't walk, you take a car. Also, as a pedestrian I'm always careful when crossing a road (and it doesn't bother me), because I know it would hurt me much more than it would hurt the driver that hit me.
Depends on the location and the distance. In many urban areas it is actually faster to walk, or ride a bike.

The reason for lowering speed limits in urban areas is not only increased pedestrian safety; it is also smoother traffic to other drivers as well (those driving across or joining the main road), and reduced noise.

Long distance drivers often underestimate the importance of local traffic.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 09:13 PM   #246
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You do much more damage to drivers who have to drive 30 km/h
How big a damage? For the 700 meters it takes to get from the furthest point in the Grenoble's 30 km/h zone to the nearest 50 km/h street a driver will add around 34 seconds to the average 20 minute commute. If 34 seconds is worth the risks in safety...

I agree to ChrisZwolle that the street design pretty much dictates the speed more than signage. Since the speed limits get introduced exactly in the dense urban cores and not on the main streets, I suppose that those areas were ripe for 30 km/h.

As to Kanadzie, I've read that slower speeds increase the visual field of drivers, making "why not just avoid hitting the pedestrian entirely?" a more frequently possible option
http://www.streetsblog.net/2015/04/0...ph-and-20-mph/

Disclaimer: I am quite biased against cars, because I don't have a driver's license and have only ever driven in the countryside. I am all for constructive arguments.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 09:33 PM   #247
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How big a damage? For the 700 meters it takes to get from the furthest point in the Grenoble's 30 km/h zone to the nearest 50 km/h street a driver will add around 34 seconds to the average 20 minute commute. If 34 seconds is worth the risks in safety...
I'll say it in general here, as I'm not familiar with Grenoble, I've only been there once. It's not just 700 meters. You can drive around the city, go to another 30-km/h zone and do that more than once a day. Every day. I become nervous driving so slowly. And we're off-topic.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 10:44 PM   #248
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What compromise are you talking about? Cars drive on roads, pedestrians walk on sidewalks. Those few times you need to cross a road, you just need to be a little careful if there's no traffic light.
I have already explained it. Let's say it's the highest speed that doesn't kill instantly. And what's the most important it's more friendly to the citizens than 50 km/h.
Again - city is not proper place for car and cars are not the most important mode of transport. Pedestrians, cyclists and public transport are.

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You usually need to drive over pedestrian crossings much more often than you need to cross a road as a pedestrian.
I said it's not only about safety and pedestrians crossing street. You don't realize how much noise a single car going 50 km/h emit if you sit in cosy interior.

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You do much more damage to drivers who have to drive 30 km/h than to pedestrians who just need to be a little careful.
Damage? What damage? I don't feel damaged, abused or hurt while driving car 30 km/h along tempo30's street. I sit comfortable and just drive.

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Remember, if you wanna get somewhere quickly, you don't walk, you take a car.
Traffic calming doesn't decrease journey speed. I've already said it - average speed in cities is around 30 km/h. The difference is that in zone-30 you don't stop on lights and just drive smoothly thourgh intercsections.

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You can drive around the city, go to another 30-km/h zone and do that more than once a day.
If you go further distance you'll eventually hit some wider collecting street and speed-up.

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I become nervous driving so slowly
Maybe you are too impatient to drive?
Anyway those zone-30's are not only denoted by signs. There are bottlenecks, priority to the right intersections, narrow lanes, shared spaces, sometime bumps, no pedestrian crossings, no traffic lights. It's not that you have straight and flat all the way ahead.
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Old March 6th, 2016, 11:45 PM   #249
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how can the driving be smoother if they put in narrow lanes, bumps and chicanes?
it sounds like the people would be lucky to move at 10 km/h
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Old March 7th, 2016, 10:51 AM   #250
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Because there are less cars in zone-30 and (again) no traffic lights. On normal 50 km/h street amplitudes of velocity are higher as you speed up to 50 km/h but stop more often. Zone-30 enables constant driving and rare and short stops. And remember that bumps or leveled-up areas are usually at intersections where you need to slow down a little anyway.

We got much off-topic here, what about new thread about traffic calming and shared spaces?

Last edited by Sponsor; March 7th, 2016 at 10:59 AM.
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Old March 9th, 2016, 09:23 PM   #251
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This is the coolest city entrance sign there is. unfortunately many people think like that and steal this sign so you can not be sure if there is one when you drive by

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Old March 16th, 2016, 06:23 AM   #252
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Germany







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Old March 19th, 2016, 05:18 AM   #253
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Old July 5th, 2016, 12:07 AM   #254
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Old July 5th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #255
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I like that last one. Wilkommen bei Hegenberg. End of the world
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Old July 5th, 2016, 12:26 AM   #256
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I like that last one. Wilkommen bei Hegenberg. End of the world
It realy is like the end of the world. Hard to find without a navigation system
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Old July 5th, 2016, 03:33 AM   #257
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Polish signs, especially the bilingual ones, have already been shown, but now more details about that.

The current official version of the city/town/vilage entrance sign looks so (of course, without these stickers):



And it's only just the city/town/village entrance. It doesn't denote any area with a 50 km/h (60 km/h in the night) speed limit.

The built-up area with the speed limit is invoked by this sign:



There is a sign forbidding overpassing by trucks under the built-up area sign, which means that it holds in the whole built-up area. So, actually, in the whole city.

By the way, behind it, you can see the official (from the catalog of the official road signs) "welcome to" sign, showing the most important landmarks of the city, or other important facts about it. Unfortunately in this case it's so small that it doesn't really make any sense. I was driving there almost every day for something like 2 years and I still don't remember what is on this sign - because it's so small that it's impossible to read it driving 50 km/h (not to mention that the traffic there is usually much faster and noone follows the speed limit).

Some cities have also their own, commercial, welcome-to signs.

Kraków:



Not a really interesting sign. Just the coat of arms and "Welcome to Kraków - The City of Polish Kings".

Włocławek:



This is this bilboard in the right upper corner. "Włocławek welcomes". I wouldn't say I really feel invited by this sign... The car (truck) wash commercial just behind it is visible much better!

They are much more popular among smaller towns and municipalities.

Brzeziny near Łódź:



"Brzeziny - Welcome". And the coats of arms of the twin towns.

Rawa Mazowiecka, a bit further away from Łódź (still qute close):



Next to the statue there are spatial letters creating the words: Rawa Mazowiecka.

Łowicz, also not far away from Łódź:



"Łowicz welcomes".

There are also signs denoting borders of voivodships, counties and municipalities. But, unfortunately, they are often full of errors.

Zgierz County:



OK, the county changes, but the municipality has to change as well. Where is its name? Noone knows.

Here it's correct - Zgierz County, Stryków Municipality:



By the way, all these signs are not written correctly in Polish. The names of administrative districts written as adjectives (like powiat zgierski - Zgierz County, województwo łódzkie - Łódź Voivodship) should be written with small letters. Only those written as nouns (like gmina Stryków - Stryków Municipality) are written with capitals. But it seems someone decided that capital letters look better graphically and didn't care at all about the language correctness.

Another option. City-County Łódź:



Why is it a few hundred meters before the green sign with just the city name (the one from the first photo)? I have no idea. The border of the city is also the border of the county (it's a city with county laws), so they should be exactly in the same place.

At the beginning I wrote that the green city entrance signs don't introduce built-up area with a speed limit - there is a separate sign for that (like in some other European countries - but not in all of them). But it hasn't always been so. Before, let's say, until the 90's, there existed entrance signs that combined those two functions. They were white with black letters. And their remainders are still present in the country.

An example. Because the entrance sign has been totally censored by Google, let's see the exit sign, and the entrance sign to the next village (which is, by the way, in a different county and municipality). This sign is correct, although it's quite old:



The warning sign against farm animals (not only cows, as those unaccustomed to European road signs may think ) is present under the sign with the village name, which means, the warning is valid within the whole village. Same as before with the overpassing by trucks forbidden.

All the exit signs (for both the green entrance signs and the white built-up area signs, also for those old signs which are no more valid) are same as the entrance signs, but they are crossed red. There is no exit signs for the voivodship/county/municipality signs. While a village can just end and there can be some area with no village, when a municipality ends, a new one must begin - there cannot be any "no man's land".

All the photos from Google Street View.
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Old July 5th, 2016, 10:07 AM   #258
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Some nices in Marseille



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Old July 6th, 2016, 01:17 AM   #259
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Old August 14th, 2016, 11:06 PM   #260
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