Politics in General (national, international, local, statewide)

[Roark]

Our President is going on national television to sell the Health Care plan that he had tried to force upon us by August break. He failed on that goal.

The Government Option that President Obama trumpeted, appears to be off the table, another welcome failure.

While most Americans agree that there should be health care reform, there is great difference in reforming and having politicians take it over.

Hopefully the President has much success on his speech tonight, hopefully, it will be similar to his speech to the school children yesterday.
Personal responsibility, liberty, freedom, and the unlimited power of individual citizens to make good decisions to take care of themselves are very American concepts.
Good ideas for the school children, and good ideas for adults.

[Roark]

"All politics is local" Tip O'Neill
ACORN, The Association for Community Organizers for Reform Now in Baltimore.

But wait there is more...


Some might say that this is just an isolated incident, and the ACORN voter registration fraud in over 11 states (including this week's report of fraud in Homestead, FL) shouldn't be such a big deal, but ACORN has received millions and million and millions of dollars or our taxpayer money. Any American should be disgusted, if you hate AIG or Lehman Brothers and don't hate this, there is a serious intellectual disconnect.

[Hia-leah JDM]

edit

[Bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by Roark

"All politics is local" Tip O'Neill
ACORN, The Association for Community Organizers for Reform Now in Baltimore.

But wait there is more...


Some might say that this is just an isolated incident, and the ACORN voter registration fraud in over 11 states (including this week's report of fraud in Homestead, FL) shouldn't be such a big deal, but ACORN has received millions and million and millions of dollars or our taxpayer money. Any American should be disgusted, if you hate AIG or Lehman Brothers and don't hate this, there is a serious intellectual disconnect.

Roark you sound like a puppet for FOX News, by the way I also happen to be a Realtor going on 14 years. I worked with ACORN in the mid 90s and none of this political BS was ever involved at the time I worked with them since they were only into rehabilitating homes and selling them for fair market value.
As far as what happened to them since then I don't know but I see you are trying to link Obama as some Socialist with his healthcare plan. Well we can solve this issue quickly, chop the Defense budget in half because really isn't the military a type of Socialism anyways? Why do we need to be in over 100+ countries and building the largest US Embassy in the world in IRAQ?

You also have a issue with Medicare now? A unfunded liabilty as you claim while we waste MY taxpayer money rebuilding a nation we should have never invaded? You Conservatives are quite comical, rebuilding IRAQ is noble and spreading Democracy! All I saw was our money being spread around Baghdad on pallets!
Of course funding Medicare & health insurance for every American is now "Socialism".
By the way I agree with you on HSAs but that isn't enough to cover a emergency but if the healthcare insurance system did work in this country we wouldn't be having a debate!
If you truly want great medical benefits I suggest working for the Government and sorry but I can't keep it as clean as I wanted to!

[spellbound]

I have no problem whatsoever with spotlighting electoral irregularities and calling it out but I find it interesting that those highlighting ACORN---even with completely valid concerns---seem to have a case of very convenient amnesia when it comes to the 2000 election and all the absolute bullshit that went on.

Very specifically in Florida and even more specifically in our own Miami.

Anyone remember the recount 'protest' outside the Stephen P. Clark Building that December? The angry mob pounding on the glass walls---flooding the aisles---circling the streets around the building---all of them demanding very loudly that the recount cease? A recount, by the way, that was perfectly legal...ordered by the courts...and is standard practice in a democracy when a razor-thin election is in dispute.

It was supposed to look local and spontaneous, and no doubt it DID look spontaneous to millions watching on CNN or FOX or whatever but any real Miamian with an ounce of common sense immediately smelled something fishy. For one thing, most Miamians aren't sunburned Oklahomans who can't speak a word of Spanish and for the other they usually wouldn't hide their faces and/or make up fake identities when asked who they really are.

It's all documented---the 'local' protesters were quite literally Bush operatives and campaign workers flown in from elsewhere (I'm more than happy to provide the links) and it was about as 'spontaneous' and 'local' as a snowstorm on 5th and Alton. They behaved like fratboy Storm Troopers and the whole thing was an embarrassment to democracy, imo.

Unless, of course, mob rule and intimidation fits your definition of democracy---in which case it was just peachy.

So, fine, I'm all about calling out ACORN or whoever but if you don't hold the Bush goons to the same standards (in an election that was MUCH closer) then that is the very definition of hypocrisy.

[spellbound]

Why not just watch the video yourself. Bush 2000, Miami. Here's the "local" protest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji_k0iORUZg

I would think any supposed 'independent, free-thinking American' would find these tactics repulsive and anathemic to democracy.

[Roark]

The date is September 12, 2009.
Your response to Association for Community Organizers for Reform Now using TAXPAYER money to encourge sex slave trafficking, tax evasion, prostitiution, etc, etc. is to bring up the year 2000 with what???
There is no comparison. None.
Hate Bush all you want. What happened in 2000 has NOTHING to do with ACORN using tax payer dollars improperly.

I find it interesting that those highlighting ACORN---even with completely valid concerns---seem to have a case of very convenient amnesia when it comes to the 2000 election

Okay...you find it interesting. I am the "those highlighting ACORN". So debate me. How do you defend that video?????
How do you defend tax payer funded community organizers promoting tax evasion, sex trafficking, housing illeagal immigrants, etc
Is that IDEA okay with you because you perceive a crime (wait, I watched the video...there were no crimes committed or tax dollars received...but that all is background noise as you know, and clearly off topic) from the year 2000?
You cannot defend these dispicable acts. They are indefensible.
Stay focused and on topic, that would be interesting.

[Roark]

Originally Posted by Bobdreamz

Roark you sound like a puppet for FOX News, by the way I also happen to be a Realtor going on 14 years. I worked with ACORN in the mid 90s and none of this political BS was ever involved at the time I worked with them since they were only into rehabilitating homes and selling them for fair market value.

Stick to the ideas. I am not a puppet, and do not watch or listen to Fox News.
Stick to the ideas...not me.

What are your comments on the video?
The video is provided without opinion provided by Rachael Madow or anyone...just video with minimal commentary.
Do you like the video, or does it make you cringe?
Is it okay for employees of ACORN to tell prostitutes how to launder money?
I know that the video I saw with my own eyes and the words that I heard with my own ears are wrong.
Is it okay for employees of ACORN to tell prostitutes how to traffic 14 year old girls from El Salvador for prostitution and claim them as dependents?
I can put politics aside easily. This is wrong.

Just admit it. This is wrong, and our tax payer dollars should not support these organization. It is a prudent move for the Census Bureua to have terminated ACORNS contract to collect the census. This stuff is appalling, and should be to every American.


PS. Health Savings Accounts do require that you carry catastrophic insurance in order to receive the tax free benefits. The $120-ish per month premium is well worth the price. I've decided it is a great value, as opposed as the Government telling me what I should do.

[spellbound]

Originally Posted by Roark

You cannot defend these dispicable acts. They are indefensible.
Stay focused and on topic, that would be interesting.

I'm curious to know where I said even one word in defense of ACORN. As a matter of fact, I said the concerns about their activities are quite legitimate. Any and all wrongdoing should be investigated and those responsible should be prosecuted.

My point, however, was that ALL political malfeasance is unacceptable and that such activities have taken place on both sides of the political aisle. You may not find the goon tactics in 2000 to be a big deal but many others (myself included) found it to be a repulsive and quite calculated effort to thwart the democratic process through intimidation. ALL such behavior is wrong, and neither 'side' has any patent on electoral nonsense.

And since you felt the need to offer advice on 'staying focused' let me offer some to you as well: Try responding to what is actually written rather than what you imagine is there. It will make for a better conversation.

[Roark]

Originally Posted by spellbound

I'm curious to know where I said even one word in defense of ACORN. As a matter of fact, I said the concerns about their activities are quite legitimate. Any and all wrongdoing should be investigated and those responsible should be prosecuted.

You didn't defend, you did gloss over the issue and you did EQUATE the actions of ACORN this week to to an event unequal from nearly a decade ago.
You didn't address the point...but glossed over it. Tax payer funded advice on how to smuggle underage illegal prostitiutes into the country, get a tax break for it IS NOT equivalent or equal to organizing a protest.
NOT equal.
Perhaps you don't approve, but you are turning your head to an obvious crime. That is wrong. Please discuss why you don't think this isn't important.

Originally Posted by spellbound

My point, however, was that ALL political malfeasance is unacceptable and that such activities have taken place on both sides of the political aisle.

Did you watch those videos???
Seriously...there is NO EQUAL!

Originally Posted by spellbound

You may not find the goon tactics in 2000 to be a big deal but many others (myself included) found it to be a repulsive and quite calculated effort to thwart the democratic process through intimidation. ALL such behavior is wrong, and neither 'side' has any patent on electoral nonsense.

My friend...you are on the wrong talking points page.
Your post distracts from my post. My post (watch the video again) did not have much to do with Electoral nonsense.
1. ACORN offered advice on how to get housing for a prostitution ring.
2. ACORN offered advice on how to launder money.
3. ACORN offered advice on how to hide illegal immigrant underage sex slaves.
4. ACORN offered advice on how to keep the young prostitutes quiet.
5. ACORN offered advice on how to funnel illegal prostitution proceeds into a political campaign.

I'm not making this up...

There isn't an equivilent!!! Get over the red team v blue team and think!

This isn't a Democrat -v- Republican thing. It isn't!
ACORN is receiving taxpayer money for this advice. If your bar/nightclub did this you (and your boss/owner) would be put out of business.

This seems like such an no brainer for all Americans to come together.

What you actually wrote and referenced was an opinion piece from Rebecca Maddow trying to persude me how to think. What I posted was video of an event.

I won't tell you how to think, like Rebecca does, but how aren't you apalled by the actions of ACORN???

What you ACTUALLY posted is changing the subject. Man up. Stay focused, and after you discuss why this ACORN tape is appropriate then I'd be happy to discuss your point in the arena of ideas.

[Bobdreamz]

Roark please stop yourself and stop being foolish because ACORN has never promoted a agenda on how to be a profiitable prostitute business and how to avoid taxes!

Who is Rebecca Maddow? did you mean Rachel Maddow?

anyways these people were fired from ACORN so what is your point? only libs commit crimes?

[Roark]

Originally Posted by Bobdreamz

Roark please stop yourself and stop being foolish because ACORN has never promoted a agenda on how to be a profiitable prostitute business and how to avoid taxes!

ACORN would like us to believe that this incident in Baltimore was just an isolated one. It is not.

Here is more video from the same 21 year old and 25 year old Independent Film makers with the same premise. This time in Washington DC.

[Hia-leah JDM]

I don't get it. Yeah, what they are doing is bad. Are they the only corrupt organization out there? They actually aren't, conservatives have just magnified their significance for the obvious reasons. Only people defending ACORN is ACORN itself. What si there to debate Roark?

People just find it ridiculous how this is all so "ambiguously" protested so hard by conservatives, especially after a few conservative talking heads do their little investigations and magnify one organization out of so many. My question is why?

[Roark]

Reading through my posts. You will see that there isn't mention of Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, or Republican.

Anyone that tries to do that is re-framing the debate to avoid the uneasy truth.
This is an organization that has strayed far from it's original mission.
Contrary to the reports of ACORN apologists and ACORN themselves, these abuses are more than isolated incidents from a few rouge employees. It appears systemic.

Giving advice on how to launder money, set up a brothel, traffic underage El Salvadoran sex slaves, claim illegal immigrants as dependents is absolutely outrageous.
Can anyone think of ANY organization that does that? Now, how about one funded with tax payer dollars?

Any and all Americans should be outraged. Racketeering in Corrupt Organizations statutes should be applied.

ACORN should be investigated for their abuses. Their tax exempt status should be revoked, their Stimulus Bill income should be re-evaluated, they should no longer be trusted to run the 2010 Census data collection.

[AddictedToSpace]

Originally Posted by Roark

Reading through my posts. You will see that there isn't mention of Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, or Republican.

Anyone that tries to do that is re-framing the debate to avoid the uneasy truth.
This is an organization that has strayed far from it's original mission.
Contrary to the reports of ACORN apologists and ACORN themselves, these abuses are more than isolated incidents from a few rouge employees. It appears systemic.

Giving advice on how to launder money, set up a brothel, traffic underage El Salvadoran sex slaves, claim illegal immigrants as dependents is absolutely outrageous.
Can anyone think of ANY organization that does that? Now, how about one funded with tax payer dollars?

Any and all Americans should be outraged. Racketeering in Corrupt Organizations statutes should be applied.

ACORN should be investigated for their abuses. Their tax exempt status should be revoked, their Stimulus Bill income should be re-evaluated, they should no longer be trusted to run the 2010 Census data collection.

If you'd do your homework instead of trying to pin all the problems with Government on ACORN, you would know that the Census Bureau has already "fired" ACORN. Read it for yourself from the a "Fair and Balanced" source.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...rs-ties-acorn/

[Hia-leah JDM]

You're telling us this like we never heard this and like we're all defending ACORN.

If you have people savagely against you and then entire media organizations hyping it up even more, you will find alot more dirt. Yes, what they are doing is not pretty, but there are alot of corrupt organizations out there recieving money, ACORN isn't getting as much as Glenn Beck tells ya anyways.

[1772]

Originally Posted by Hia-leah JDM

You're telling us this like we never heard this and like we're all defending ACORN.

If you have people savagely against you and then entire media organizations hyping it up even more, you will find alot more dirt. Yes, what they are doing is not pretty, but there are alot of corrupt organizations out there recieving money, ACORN isn't getting as much as Glenn Beck tells ya anyways.

I thought Roark said he didn't watch Fox?

[Jimmy McShane]

..

[Roark]

Originally Posted by 1772

I thought Roark said he didn't watch Fox?

I don't watch Fox or Glenn Beck.

The "ACORN is corrupt but other organizations are also corrupt" is silly.
When you see a crime with your own eyes, and hear it with you own ears, you should not just ignore it because other crimes are committed elsewhere.

Great news that the United States Census severed ties with ACORN on Friday.
A good start, now how about the millions and millions of dollars that ACORN receives from Housing and Urban Development? Clearly, defending ACORN is tough, but Americans should agree that a Racketeering in Corrupt Organizations investigation is in order. What is abundantly clear is that ACORN is guilty of dozens of counts of voter fraud, and these video tapes expose the enabling of sex trafficking underage prostitutes and tax evasion.

This 25 year old Independent filmmaker has gotten results from his investigations. There hasn't better independant journalism on the Internet since Drudge broke the blue dress story.

This recent scam, which was attempted in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia to name a few places, had failed for months before the results we’ve all recently seen.
-Bertha Lewis, Chief Organizer, ACORN

Oh really....more video from NYC...another isolated incident.



Alinsky Rule #10, “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign.”

[spellbound]

Originally Posted by Roark

Perhaps you don't approve, but you are turning your head to an obvious crime. That is wrong. Please discuss why you don't think this isn't important..

What part of my statement that those involved should be prosecuted is confusing to you? How on Earth do you come to the bizarre conclusion that I am "turning my head" to criminal activity when I state they should be punished? Do I need to state that they should be hung in a public square at high noon to make it any clearer to you?

Honestly, I think I could type the word "yellow" here and you would insist I said "blue." This is a pattern that has been repeated before. You sometimes respond to what you imagine someone wrote (or means) rather than their ACTUAL words. I don't know if it's a comprehension problem or perhaps a desire to interject false meanings from others to buttress your own arguments but either way your above statement is 100% erroneous.

Originally Posted by Roark

My friend...you are on the wrong talking points page.
Your post distracts from my post. My post (watch the video again) did not have much to do with Electoral nonsense.

I think it would be ludicrous to pretend this doesn't have everything to do with politics. You know fully that the actions of these ACORN employees would hardly register a blip in media attention were it not for ACORN's pre-existing scrutiny from the presidential election and it stretches credulity to think you would have felt compelled to highlight this story here were that not the case. Be honest.

In no way, shape, or form do I excuse their behavior (either during the election or in this current matter) but political malfeasance and chicanery are not the domain of one party or political ideology. I simply presented some from the other 'side' while excusing NONE of it.

In the simplest terms, you presented one story for political reasons and I rebutted with another for the same reason. Nobody with a functioning brain would see it any differently. We should be honest about that.

Originally Posted by Roark

1. ACORN offered advice on how to get housing for a prostitution ring.
2. ACORN offered advice on how to launder money.
3. ACORN offered advice on how to hide illegal immigrant underage sex slaves.
4. ACORN offered advice on how to keep the young prostitutes quiet.
5. ACORN offered advice on how to funnel illegal prostitution proceeds into a political campaign.

All of it reprehensible.

Yet, you are on slippery legal ground in wording it to appear that ACORN is itself guilty as an organizational whole rather than these being the rogue actions of some (very stupid) employees. In order for ACORN itself to be culpable, it would have to be shown that the 'advice' these staffers gave were standard practice organizationally and a mandated practice dictated by management.

If that is not the case, then it becomes the moral and legal equivalency of blaming every Enron employee for the repulsive and illegal activites of a few or excoriating, say, Publix as a corporate whole because some of their workers may use illegal drugs or engage in domestic abuse.

This demonization of ACORN as a whole is unfair to the dedicated and ethical people who no doubt also work there. Would either of us feel we were being treated fairly if we were to be tarred and demonized because someone who shares our profession engaged in illegal or unethical activities---as some no doubt do?

If anything, I would think someone who subscribes to (or is influenced by) a Randian philosophy would be the last to ascribe collective guilt based on the actions of a few.

Originally Posted by Roark

I'm not making this up....

Who said you were? In fact, I think most of us were aware of this story before you posted it. It was already well-publicized and getting plenty of play, just like the 'Reagan video' and various other "found" items that weren't exactly obscure before appearing on this message board.

Originally Posted by Roark

There isn't an equivilent!!! Get over the red team v blue team and think!

This isn't a Democrat -v- Republican thing. It isn't!

I think saying that ALL political chicanery---regardless of its source or the philosophy behind it---is to be found reprehensible speaks for itself. It is wrong---it subverts democracy---and it should be punished. I do not 'favor' one side or the other in that equation, despite having the same political biases that you do. I do not muddle ethics and legality based on my own politics. They are two entirely different things.

Originally Posted by Roark

What you actually wrote and referenced was an opinion piece from Rebecca Maddow trying to persude me how to think. What I posted was video of an event.

You are free to disagree with Maddow's opinion but the facts in the 'Miami protest' are a matter of public record and not in dispute by anybody. What was calculated to appear as a 'spontaneous' protest by outraged voters was in reality a staged event by GOP operatives flown in from across the country---including Bush/Cheney staffers paid to be there. No 'opinion' on the event changes those facts, nor have they ever been denied once the truth was revealed.

Originally Posted by Roark

I won't tell you how to think, like Rebecca does, but how aren't you apalled by the actions of ACORN???

I am thoroughly appalled by the actions of those involved and believe they should be prosecuted. To repeat this any longer (although I suspect that will be the case) will cross the line into ad-nauseum repetition. Are you clear on that point yet?

Do I blame the entirety of ACORN for this shameful activity? No---for the reasons I detailed earlier. Should the facts of the case prove organizational culpability then I will broaden my own sense of guilt to include the whole.

As for "Rebecca" (it's actually Rachel) I wish you could drop the snide asides such as inferring she "tells me how to think" in lieu of more mature responses. You have the intelligence to do better.

I do not infer that right-wing talking heads do your thinking and expect the same courtesy in return.