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Old February 3rd, 2010, 05:52 PM   #161
Clay Hefner
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Quote:
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They all look in a similar style to me. Do you have any proper military castles in Germany or not? I mean with proper original battlements, machiolations, portcullis, etc??
Now wait a minute. Several "proper military castles" have been posted in this thread already. Personally, I have often posted aerials, to show those fortifications. I'm too lazy now to post them again, maybe later
Also, it always depends on the local political situation.
If a small local ruler was locked in a perpetual feud with an ambitious neighbor, he would have to heavily prioritize on fortifications as best as he could afford or else go under.
But if he was in a more peaceful area, and the worst case scenario would likely be 50 guys appearing in front of the gates, he could do with a smaller castle, but it would still be a proper military castle, would it not?

In German castles at least, a Palas was traditionally an important part of a castle.
That doesn't mean we can discount all of those castles as mere "palaces".

To sum the thread up so far, maybe we can all agree on the following things:

- British castles tend to appear massive, heavily fortified, somber, defiant, "optimized" and carefully conceptualized.
- Central mainland castles tend to look more chaotic, "grown" and in many cases changing over time. Also they often have elements that fits our modern perception of "cuteness" (independent of whether they were "enhanced" in historicism) , they are also more diverse, and unique.
- Some people like one type over the other
- I like waffles. Who's with me?
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 05:56 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Hefner View Post
- British castles tend to appear massive, heavily fortified, somber, defiant, "optimized" and carefully conceptualized.
- Central mainland castles tend to look more chaotic, "grown" and in many cases changing over time. Also they often have elements that fits our modern perception of "cuteness".
Yes but in Scotland we have tons of cute decorated castles with picturesque turrets and spires. In Germany you seem to lack massive military castles. It's Britain that has both, and Germany that lacks this diversity.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:08 PM   #163
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Yes but in Scotland we have tons of cute decorated castles with picturesque turrets and spires. In Germany you seem to lack massive military castles. It's Britain that has both, and Germany that lacks this diversity.
Agreed. These sort of castles in the Highlands have medieval fortifications in the next glen.

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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:14 PM   #164
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^ Ahem....
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:26 PM   #165
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Oooo, good find of a photo Too quick for me / I'm not observant enough.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:26 PM   #166
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Quote:
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Yes but in Scotland we have tons of cute decorated castles with picturesque turrets and spires. In Germany you seem to lack massive military castles. It's Britain that has both, and Germany that lacks this diversity.
I wasn't referring to Historicism in this case. I was talking about actually old features that are pretty common: high spires, a tall donjon, high roofs, half-timbering, also somewhat plaster and paint, the "chaotic" outline, the seeming lack of optimized defence, stuff like this, that romanticism and historicism regarded and Disney&company further established as "archetypal" and farytale-like.

It's hardly debatable that well-preserved central European castles tend to fit the bill of what we consider to be "fairytale-ish" MUCH better than the average "left-as-was" British castle. And that's that.
One thing's for sure tho. If Saruman's Uruk-Hai army was after me, I'd rather choose a British castle for hiding.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:34 PM   #167
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^ But many some of those Scottish spires and turrets are not historicist.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:40 PM   #168
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Quote:
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Yes but in Scotland we have tons of cute decorated castles with picturesque turrets and spires. In Germany you seem to lack massive military castles. It's Britain that has both, and Germany that lacks this diversity.
I find it funny, how you and the other Brit constantly cry out "wroooong!!" and "ignorant!!", while you, both of you, don't have any clue.

Germany might have many palaces (not military buildings), which we call castle in our language too, but we have lots of "Burgen" (military fortifications) as well.

Ever heard of the Rhine Valley, UNESCO World Heritage? With the highest density of military fortifications (Burgen) in all of Europe. Alone there are hundreds of them.
And did you know, that in the 19th century the Rhine Valley was most popular by highly educated British tourists (Mary Shelley, Lord Byron...)? Because there was and still is nothing comparable on your lovely island!
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:11 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Hefner View Post
Now wait a minute. Several "proper military castles" have been posted in this thread already. Personally, I have often posted aerials, to show those fortifications. I'm too lazy now to post them again, maybe later
Also, it always depends on the local political situation.
If a small local ruler was locked in a perpetual feud with an ambitious neighbor, he would have to heavily prioritize on fortifications as best as he could afford or else go under.
But if he was in a more peaceful area, and the worst case scenario would likely be 50 guys appearing in front of the gates, he could do with a smaller castle, but it would still be a proper military castle, would it not?

In German castles at least, a Palas was traditionally an important part of a castle.
That doesn't mean we can discount all of those castles as mere "palaces".

To sum the thread up so far, maybe we can all agree on the following things:

- British castles tend to appear massive, heavily fortified, somber, defiant, "optimized" and carefully conceptualized.
- Central mainland castles tend to look more chaotic, "grown" and in many cases changing over time. Also they often have elements that fits our modern perception of "cuteness" (independent of whether they were "enhanced" in historicism) , they are also more diverse, and unique.
- Some people like one type over the other
- I like waffles. Who's with me?
I was about to say that.
Probably the reason is simply the different history. England has been a somehow united kingdom for ages whilst in Germany the Holy Roman Empire was quite a loose construction with many many nobles controlling small territories - therefore most were neither able to build huge palaces nor financing a larger army. Their castle had in most cases both purposes to fulfill - residence and a small fortification. There was no such thing as a German Imperial Army which would have justified building huge fortifications. On the other hand, this results in the country being covered with thousands of castles, still complete or in ruins.

Although I have to admit that I'm no expert on the field of military history, but it seems to be a somehow right explanation.


Regarding the discussion about architectural variety: I personally can see attractiveness in both. A completely, never changed castle is a beautiful thin but the rare exceptions. Most of these have been used over centuries and in their history had to serve different purposes (and/or were (partially) destroyed one or more times), so it's totally normal that parts have been added or rebuildt which is totally acceptable. Finally, this tells you lots about the history of the complex which is always interesting.
Just look e. g. at railway stations. You won't find a single one in a original 19th-century state just because they had to be redesigned. And you won't find lots of buildings buildt in our days in a completely end-of-20th-century state within 200 or even 100 years. That's a normal evolution.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:32 PM   #170
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:50 PM   #171
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Chateau d'Ussé, France

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Old February 3rd, 2010, 09:03 PM   #172
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 09:07 PM   #173
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Portugal, Guimarães
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 09:25 PM   #174
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Kreuzenstein, Austria:





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Burg Kreuzenstein is a castle in Lower Austria, Austria. It was constructed in the 1800's by the Wilczek family. Kreuzenstein is interesting in that it was contructed out of sections of medieval structures purchased by the family from all over Europe to form an authentic-looking castle. Thus, the castle can be considered both a 'neo' and 'original' medieval structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burg_Kreuzenstein

Vajdahunyad Castle, Budapest
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Vajdahunyad Castle, or Vajdahunyad vára, is a castle in City Park, Budapest, Hungary, that was built between 1896 and 1908, designed by Ignác Alpár. It is a copy in part of a castle in Transylvania, Romania (see below), that is also called Vajdahunyad, though it is also a display of different architectural styles: Romanic, Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajdahunyad_Castle

Hunedoara Castle, Romania:



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Old February 3rd, 2010, 09:42 PM   #175
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I like the French Renaissance castles the best!
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:06 PM   #176
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so meny wonderful castles :
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:08 PM   #177
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Castello di Miramare - Trieste, Italy

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/medioman/591470965/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/photo_e-m/2514192284/
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:35 PM   #178
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:41 PM   #179
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Miramare is gorgeous.

This is Herrenchiemsee, Bavaria


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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:59 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
I find it funny, how you and the other Brit constantly cry out "wroooong!!" and "ignorant!!", while you, both of you, don't have any clue.

Germany might have many palaces (not military buildings), which we call castle in our language too, but we have lots of "Burgen" (military fortifications) as well.

Ever heard of the Rhine Valley, UNESCO World Heritage? With the highest density of military fortifications (Burgen) in all of Europe. Alone there are hundreds of them.

And did you know, that in the 19th century the Rhine Valley was most popular by highly educated British tourists (Mary Shelley, Lord Byron...)? Because there was and still is nothing comparable on your lovely island!
Byron's main obsession was ancient Greece. He died fighting for Greek independence. It was also normal for wealthy Britons to conduct a "Grand Tour" of Europe to complete their education. The core of the Grand Tour was Italy, not Germany, and the prime object was not to enjoy castles that could not be found on "our lovely island", as we have hundreds of castles ourselves.

Ultimately I'm just responding in kind to Erbse by exposing his ignorance and reversing his argument. And anyway I have a point. Where is the German equivalent of Caernarfon or Warwick?

Erbse disparages raw military castles because he knows he can't match them. Caernarfon once again:

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