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Old May 27th, 2016, 09:23 PM   #301
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Okay, the facts you wrote (and a misunderstanding of the Railjournal article, calling all your vehicles the "15T"s without dividing them into three-sectional 15Ts and 15T1s of 4 sections made me think you're paying 3,15 mln €/30m tramcar. 2,7 is still quite a lot IMHO but acceptable, especially due to the fact that you're keeping the fleet unified.

The thing you're doing wrong, while comparing Pesa tramcars is that you're comparing a Foxtrot (a 26,5 m tramcar) and not the 32m Twist. Interior of the 32m 100% LF tramcar can be found here:
http://wroclawskakomunikacja.pl/gale...za/pesa-2010nw

The typical 32m Twist has 5 double and 2 single doors http://phototrans.pl/14,577192,0,Pesa_2010N_621.htmlVersion for Częstochowa here),
so entering the tram is no problem at all. Capacity is OK. We have got 58 sitting places and tons of standing(which is similar to 15Ts) and the passenger exchange is quicker than in most old 105N series cars (and those have 8 enterances per a 26m train of 2 coupled units).

Yes, it may be a problem that Twists lose some seats above bogies - it's a matter of construction - 15Ts have their middle bogies designed as Jacobs's system bogies - they are under the articulation (where there are no sitting places - it forces the passage in the gangway to be quite narrow).
So good luck in your further 15T rides. Let's hope you're going to like them as much as the first batch.

Last edited by 0tomek0; May 27th, 2016 at 09:38 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2016, 11:26 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0tomek0 View Post
Okay, the facts you wrote (and a misunderstanding of the Railjournal article, calling all your vehicles the "15T"s without dividing them into three-sectional 15Ts and 15T1s of 4 sections made me think you're paying 3,15 mln €/30m tramcar. 2,7 is still quite a lot IMHO but acceptable, especially due to the fact that you're keeping the fleet unified.

The thing you're doing wrong, while comparing Pesa tramcars is that you're comparing a Foxtrot (a 26,5 m tramcar) and not the 32m Twist. Interior of the 32m 100% LF tramcar can be found here:
http://wroclawskakomunikacja.pl/gale...za/pesa-2010nw

The typical 32m Twist has 5 double and 2 single doors http://phototrans.pl/14,577192,0,Pesa_2010N_621.htmlVersion for Częstochowa here),
so entering the tram is no problem at all. Capacity is OK. We have got 58 sitting places and tons of standing(which is similar to 15Ts) and the passenger exchange is quicker than in most old 105N series cars (and those have 8 enterances per a 26m train of 2 coupled units).

Yes, it may be a problem that Twists lose some seats above bogies - it's a matter of construction - 15Ts have their middle bogies designed as Jacobs's system bogies - they are under the articulation (where there are no sitting places - it forces the passage in the gangway to be quite narrow).
So good luck in your further 15T rides. Let's hope you're going to like them as much as the first batch.
Pesa trams can not take 15 meter radius, and also their bogies are not as freely pivoting as the Skodas, so no need to compare.

The gangway is not narrow it is 70 cm wide. lot more then the gangway between seats from other trams.

As of design, only handsome trams from Pesa are the ones for Silesian Interurbans and Krakowiak, other trams produced by Pesa I personally find quite ugly and with quite the same face. Solaris trams are even uglier.

But if we talk about beautiful trams then Alstom and Bombardier are gonna win. But Citadis 25 meter turning radius is awful.
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Old May 28th, 2016, 02:19 AM   #303
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Also asymmetrical pivot of Skoda bogies gives them better riding characteristic over rough tracks than conventional bogies. You have to understand that the Skoda is like a Unimog or Range Rover compared to other low floor trams which are like ordinary road automobiles. Trams from Alstom or Bombardier would simply fail (derail) on track conditions like Riga or Prague and as Pesa is a very similar design I've no doubt it would too. The Skoda is designed for rough conditions.

So that creates a difficulty for competitive tendering where the operator has to be careful that they don't get an unsatisfactory tram so price can't be given too much importance (so the cheapest tram doesn't necessarily win) and the technical specifications have to be very exact. This makes it look like the tender is written for the Skoda but in fact it's simply written to ensure that they get the suitable tram for the job and don't get something that gives problems.

It's not Skoda's fault that they have the only tram on the market for sub-par track if nobody else will do it.

I posted a photo before of the sort of track conditions Skoda is designed for:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=277
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Old May 28th, 2016, 03:44 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
You have to understand that the Skoda is like a Unimog or Range Rover compared to other low floor trams which are like ordinary road automobiles. Trams from Alstom or Bombardier would simply fail (derail) on track conditions like Riga or Prague and as Pesa is a very similar design I've no doubt it would too. The Skoda is designed for rough conditions.
How do non-Škoda low-floor trams operate in cities with much worse track conditions? I'm thinking Russia, Ukraine, perhaps Tallinn (though I think they reconstructed all lines that the new CAF trams serve)?
Quote:
This makes it look like the tender is written for the Skoda but in fact it's simply written to ensure that they get the suitable tram for the job and don't get something that gives problems.
Yes, our Procurement Supervision Bureau (IUB) after receiving complaints from other manufacturers still ruled the tender acceptable.
Quote:
I posted a photo before of the sort of track conditions Skoda is designed for:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=277
Now that part is getting renovated New trams started to use this part in 2012 or 2013

(source)
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Old May 29th, 2016, 01:30 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
How do non-Škoda low-floor trams operate in cities with much worse track conditions? I'm thinking Russia, Ukraine, perhaps Tallinn (though I think they reconstructed all lines that the new CAF trams serve)?
I think you answered your own question with Tallinn (also Budapest) - they rebuild the track. From what I've seen no 100% low floor trams operate on systems with poorer track though many are part-low floor.

Or they forget about low floor and just use Tatra T3 like Odessa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=madyXWc_5W4
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Old May 29th, 2016, 11:58 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
Tallinn (also Budapest) - they rebuild the track.
Meanwhile some places in Saint-Petersburg




And some in Moscow:


And some places in Lviv:

pictures from transphoto.ru
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Old May 30th, 2016, 01:11 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Pesa trams can not take 15 meter radius, and also their bogies are not as freely pivoting as the Skodas, so no need to compare.

The gangway is not narrow it is 70 cm wide. lot more then the gangway between seats from other trams.

As of design, only handsome trams from Pesa are the ones for Silesian Interurbans and Krakowiak, other trams produced by Pesa I personally find quite ugly and with quite the same face. Solaris trams are even uglier.

But if we talk about beautiful trams then Alstom and Bombardier are gonna win. But Citadis 25 meter turning radius is awful
.
No, Alstom are not gonna win.

This shows it's all a matter of personal taste. I actually find most Pesa designs to be quite handsome. Solaris not so much, but still among the better-looking. Stadler, Škoda, and Siemens average. Bombardier below average, but some designs quite good.

I personally find Alstom designs, especially the Citadis, to be not at all beautiful, but rather bland, at best. How on earth they get a reputation for good design I don't know - perhaps it's the mistaken assumption that French design is the best in all fields. Women's clothing perhaps, but certainly not trams. But then, as I said, it's personal taste. I doubt whether my aesthetic sensibilities are inferior to yours - just different.

BTW, greetings to "historyworks". I think you were the gentleman (Czech/Australian?) with whom I had a discussion a few years ago (I was then posting with a slightly different name) mainly about the Škoda 15T. I found your posts very informative and illuminating, and they convinced me of the superiority of the 15T for systems with tight curves.

However, comparing their inside views with those of more conventional low-floor trams, I see why systems without very many tight curves might not like the 15T. Perhaps the inter-section gangways are no narrower than the space between the seats on other designs, but they do have a visually rather forbidding appearance. That may be partly why the 15T hasn't made more of a show on the world tram market.

Nevertheless I suspect that the failure of Škoda, and Pesa and Solaris, to make headway in "western" markets is partly a matter of prejudice against Eastern European manufacturers, indeed against anything of a non-"western" origin.

Incidentally I read that, having failed to find a buyer for them, Praha is refurbishing the Škoda 14T trams for further service.

Last edited by FrankYCH; May 30th, 2016 at 01:17 AM.
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Old May 30th, 2016, 02:04 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
Meanwhile some places in Saint-Petersburg
Obviously it's possible but we don't know the individual circumstances of each city such as whether transition curves etc and the details of the trams. That 30 metre one with only 3 bogies would not have a favourable axle load, leading to more track wear. I'd also suggest also that the Russians, like the Czechs, would have more experience with operating trams on unfavourable tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankYCH View Post
That may be partly why the 15T hasn't made more of a show on the world tram market.

Nevertheless I suspect that the failure of Škoda, and Pesa and Solaris, to make headway in "western" markets is partly a matter of prejudice against Eastern European manufacturers, indeed against anything of a non-"western" origin.
Greetings and salutations FrankYCH.

Actually Skoda and Pesa have made big gains on the tram market and in some recent years have had the top sales of all the manufacturers in the streetcar market. Only when you add in tram-trains and exports outside Europe do Alstom and Bombardier move ahead. Even then, Skoda and Pesa have beaten off some of the traditional incumbents in the European market like Siemens and Stadler. Solaris is smaller but has helped make good gains for Poland as a manufacturing country. The Czechs also have Pragoimex (and to a small extent Inekon) to add to their share.

The reason 15T has not made more appearance (except China where it is taking off strongly under licence) is that the tram market is very much driven by price rather than technical qualities. Under modern competitive tendering rules, price (and other factors) is often given a hgher weighting and this wins the contract. Both Skoda and Pesa also offer similar tram models to those of Bombardier and Alstom but cheaper and so can get some big orders with them.

The 15T is for cities with very specific requirements for demanding service and infrastructure etc and it was never expected to sell it in every city. Its time will come when some of these new systems get run down and suddenly they find they don't have money to bring it back to top quality and they will no longer be able to run their Citadis on it. It's then cheaper to buy a tram that's kind to the infrastructure than spend money you don't have trying to bring the system to perfection, expecially if there is extremely heavy use of the system - e.g. Prague where they don't have a lot of money and have to make their infrastructure survive as long as possible under very heavy tram traffic.
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Old June 10th, 2016, 08:29 PM   #309
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Tatra T6B5 tram

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Old June 19th, 2016, 07:20 PM   #310
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Rīga is taking up hydrogen


(source)

Currently there is an ongoing tender for the purchase of 10 new trolleybuses with hydrogen fuel cells as a backup power source. The results will be known later this summer.
It seems that 10 hydrogen buses have already been purchased, but I can't find any more details on that procurement.
The total cost of these 20 vehicles will be around 18 million euros and they will be delivered from 2017 through 2018.

For additional 4,5 million euros Rīgas Satiksme will be constructing a hydrogen generating and fueling station at Vienības gatve 6. Private car owners will also be able to use this gas station.

Even though 50% of these projects will be financed by the EU, the public views these projects quite negatively because of how expensive they are and the fact that it might be cheaper to simply extend the trolleybus network instead of providing expensive back-up power. Rīgas Satiksme's expert from the Latvian academy of Sciences claims that the new vehicles will be cheaper to maintain than the old ones, but we already have bought enough new vehicles to replace all the aging ones – the last 15 old trolleybuses will probably be retired this year and there's a similar story with buses.


EDIT: I guess those hydrogen buses haven't been bought yet – db.lv got it wrong.
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Old June 25th, 2016, 12:30 PM   #311
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New bus route, hour tickets


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A new bus route between Ziepniekkalns and Ķengarags is to be introduced, starting the 1st of July. In Ķengarags the terminus will be at the future Akropole mega mall. From there passengers will have to change to the tram to get to actual Ķengarags. Though with the new hour tickets that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Connections to Pļavnieki at one end and to Šosciems at the other are also possible. Jāņavārti railway station is 10 minutes walking distance from Ķengarags terminus. The bus will run every half hour.

This will be only the second bus route to run over the Southern bridge
For some reason the new route's number will be 60, skipping 58 and 59.


(source)

A hour ticket will finally be introduced, making it cheaper to change routes. Sadly, it's being used as a political tool by the city's mayor, who made these tickets twice as expensive (2,30 euros instead of 1,15) for people residing outside Rīga. It means that for tourists and commuters from outside Rīga with irregular work schedule will have to ride 3 vehicles within the hour for the ticket to make financial sense.
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Old July 8th, 2016, 09:34 PM   #312
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Low floor – always and forever


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From 01.07.2016. all trolleybuses operating in Rīga are with low floor. The last old Škoda 14Tr, 15Tr, 14TrM and 15TrM have now been put out of service with four trolleybuses remaining for driver training only. That's something that hasn't happened yet in Tallinn, Vilnius or Kaunas.

The high floor Mercedes O345 buses are also gradually being phased out meaning that in a year or two the whole bus fleet will also be low floor.


In other news:
From 01.07.2016. Vaidavas iela has a new bus lane. Journey times should drop by 5 minutes during rush hour. It's planned to extend the bus lane on Ieriķu iela, connecting with Zemitāna tilts bus lane.
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Old July 9th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #313
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There are still many ancient trams, though. Perhaps you know whether they are also scheduled for near term retirement?
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Old July 10th, 2016, 01:02 AM   #314
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Sadly the tram replacement takes a lot of time. Although even Dresden, Berlin and other cities still have many old trams, I think in Rīga it is taking more time than it should.

By the most recent schedule the last tram line to be converted to low floor trams will be line 10 by year 2032. To put it into perspective, the current low floor trams will need to be refurbished already in 2025 and retired probably in 2040.

I don't even understand how the old trams will last to 2032.
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Old July 10th, 2016, 01:06 AM   #315
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I don't even understand how the old trams will last to 2032.
Because they're Tatra T3s. They'll still be running in 3032.
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Old July 10th, 2016, 01:18 AM   #316
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Yeah, I was thinking about that – I'm glad we don't have some Soviet-Russian-made trams instead

Speaking of T3s – it seems that Rīga's RVR factory has made a deal to modernize old T3 trams for the Russian city Ufa. Design by the Russian industrial design studio Forma. But currently it's hard for me to believe any RVR plans until I see results and not just fancy computer images.

An article in Russian

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Old October 19th, 2016, 02:16 PM   #317
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New bus route
58 Vecmīlgrāvis - Purvciems
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Old October 20th, 2016, 12:31 AM   #318
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I am always again impressed what kind of track conditions trams are able of coping with. Those pictures above show tracks which could almost be wavy enough to make people sea sick. And it is not as if those pictures would use excessive zoom to exagerate that effect.

Are there any plans for track reconstruction and repair?
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Old October 20th, 2016, 10:20 PM   #319
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I am always again impressed what kind of track conditions trams are able of coping with. Those pictures above show tracks which could almost be wavy enough to make people sea sick. And it is not as if those pictures would use excessive zoom to exagerate that effect.
I had just put pictures of cities with low floor trams. There are worse cities out there...


Quote:
Are there any plans for track reconstruction and repair?
You mean those cities in the pictures? Probably there are plans? I don't know anything about Russia and Ukraine. Some cities are closing their tram lines, like Voronezh or Omsk.

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Old February 19th, 2017, 03:50 PM   #320
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Škoda 15T tram




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