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Old October 6th, 2006, 06:45 PM   #21
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Old October 6th, 2006, 06:45 PM   #22
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This thread rocks!! That new stations' GIF's are just gorgeous!!
Muchas gracias Torke
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Old October 12th, 2006, 11:04 PM   #23
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METRO MADRID MAP:

MAY 2007

This is the map that we are going to have in Madrid in May 2007, when all the lines under construction were opened.

From May 2007, we will have other plan for next 4 years with more km and more lines!

Enjoy the map!!!

Pedro

Bigger size:

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/7...ayo2007gi1.jpg


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Old October 12th, 2006, 11:10 PM   #24
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A question, those extensions on L3, they are going to be ready in only 8 months?

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Old October 13th, 2006, 12:57 AM   #25
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The Madrid-Metro is kind a unique, because they have a ringmetro outside the main metro-network.

But then again, does a city of this size, needs such a large metronetwork? It's very expensive, but i think it would operate well, but someone has to pay for it...
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Old October 13th, 2006, 02:12 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui View Post
A question, those extensions on L3, they are going to be ready in only 8 months?
Yes. After May '07, Line 3 will be extended even more to the south (El Casar and Perales del Río) and probably to the north (Islas Filipinas and Cuatro Caminos).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
The Madrid-Metro is kind a unique, because they have a ringmetro outside the main metro-network.

But then again, does a city of this size, needs such a large metronetwork? It's very expensive, but i think it would operate well, but someone has to pay for it...
Please note that the map shows heavy metro, light metro (tram) and railway networks that serve Madrid and other small cities that are around Madrid.
But even then, if you consider economic, energetic and enviormental costs, those networks (which in fact are a big integrated network) even become cheap! Think about them like a time and energy savers (and that means they're money savers), employment creators, development stimulators and so on.
If you ever come to Madrid to stay some days you'll see how many people use metro and I'm sure you'll conclude that certainly more metro is needed .

Last edited by balasto; October 13th, 2006 at 02:39 AM.
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Old October 13th, 2006, 02:34 AM   #27
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such a huge metro.. woow
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Old October 13th, 2006, 06:26 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
The Madrid-Metro is kind a unique, because they have a ringmetro outside the main metro-network.

But then again, does a city of this size, needs such a large metronetwork? It's very expensive, but i think it would operate well, but someone has to pay for it...
I can't give you dollar figures to answer your question, but I spent four months living in Madrid and I can tell you that yes, Madrid does need a metro this big. The metro system is utilized by everyone in Madrid and it really helps getting around the city easy. From the crowded trains and the popularity of the metro, I assume that the operator of the system is doing well, which is surprising seeing as though a one way fare is 1 euro while a book of 10 rides is about 6.3 euros. I was really impressed by the low fares. Madrid's metro is awesome and I am all for them expanding the system!
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Old October 13th, 2006, 10:21 PM   #29
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Well... I should have expliained that in this map you can see the 3 kind of railways networks together.

METRO: With the simbols of "1", "2", "3"....
Lightrail or Light Metro: With the simbols of "ML-1", "ML-2"...
Commuter trains: "C-1", "C-2" ...

The networks operate in Madrid city and the outskirts and other cities near Madrid.

In total, you can see 277 km of Metro (more or less), 30 km of LightMetro, and 380 km of Commuter train.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 04:58 AM   #30
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MADRID: Give them 3 yrs & they'll give you 36 miles of subway at 85mil/mile

I'd like to know as much as I can about this incredible engineering feat, and I'd like to know how it can or can't be implemented in America, specifically in Los Angeles.

What Madrid did (and continues to do) is nothing short of astonishing:
Quote:
During the period 1999-2003, the Madrid regional government undertook planning, design, construction and commissioning of a grand total of 46.6 miles of railway, 36 miles in 31 foot-diameter tunnel, together with 39 stations and 8 interchange stations, and the required rolling stock. This feat, which included the complete 25 mile-long Metrosur circular underground line with 27 stations, three new depots and an electrical substation, was accomplished at a final unit cost, including rolling stock, of $85 million/mile. Design started in August, 1999. Construction started 29th June, 2000 and was completed and commissioned on 11th April, 2003 including the rolling stock, 1500 V power system, and signalling system. The success of the project is attributed to the political direction and management by then Madrid President, Alberto Ruiz-Gallardón, who was subsequently elected as Mayor of the City of Madrid in May, 2003.


Here's an excerpt of a 2003 International Railway Journal article on Professor Manuel Melis, President of the Madrid Metro, who headed the project:

Quote:
Madrid Metro's president, Mr Manuel Melis, told IRJ in Madrid that construction had gone according to plan, though he admitted that the timescale could have been even shorter than originally planned. He said: "We completed everything on time and within budget. In fact, we could have finished six months earlier because we were too conservative in our planning. Tunnel construction on the bored sections, using three boring machines, went faster than we expected. In retrospect, we could have saved time by using the same tunnelling method on the southern section, which was constructed using the cut-and-cover method."

Melis is a strong proponent of a cheap and efficient construction process, and he has put his philosophy into practice in Madrid, where the entire cost of the 1999-2003 metro development programme amounted to $3.9 billion. These projects, incorporating Metrosur and the Line 10 extension, included planning, civil works, electrical and mechanical installations, interchanges, maintenance facilities, and rolling stock at an average cost of $85 million/mile.

Previous projects have been undertaken successfully on the same basis, as Melis explained last year in an article on project management (IRJ Rail Outlook 2002 p16). He said on that occasion: "I believe that rail transport projects are simple engineering projects, easy to design and build, and, with the appropriate staff and management techniques, they can easily be completed on time and within budget I refer particularly to those Madrid Metro projects where completion dates have not only been met, but have been beaten by several years in comparison with similar projects elsewhere."

The completion of Metrosur and the Line 10 extension have given Melis similar cause for satisfaction. He declared: "This latest project demonstrates again the importance of our philosophy. Many cities around the world desperately need new metro lines, but they cannot afford to build them at an estimated $300 million to $400 million/mile, nor be forced to wait a dozen years for the lines to become reality. The truth is that these estimates of costs and time are simply wrong. In Madrid, with all humbleness, we have now proved it on more than one occasion.

"Civil works amounted to about 70% of the total cost of our programmes. The most important part of this cost is the tunnel part. I believe that Madrid has shown that Earth Pressure Balance (EPB) tunnels in soft ground are far less expensive, but much safer than open face tunnel construction methods such as the New Austrian Tunnelling Method (NATM), sprayed concrete lining (SCL), Adeco, or pre-cutting.

"Transport infrastructure projects can be divided easily into manageable parts. Each section of the project can be designed simultaneously and all construction contracts can be awarded simultaneously, so that any manageable contract worth up to $187.5 million, for example, can be completed within three years. Even enormous tunnelling projects such as the Channel Tunnel have been excavated in this timescale. Therefore, provided that funds are available, any lineal project such as a metro can be designed and built in 40 to 45 months, as we have demonstrated.

"Station architecture is an important factor, too. It should never be handed over to world-renowned architects. A transport project is a serious engineering work that should not be confused with a museum or an emblematic building for a city. Several million passengers/day may move through metro stations, so their design must take into account this fact by giving easy access from the street to the trains, via wide escalators and corridors and shallow station platforms.
And yet the stations are spacious and open:




Here are more specs on a portion the project: Metrosur

Can someone please explain to me just how this was done, so quickly and so cheaply in a 1st-world country. Also, someone please explain the Madrid cut-and-cover method to me like a 3rd grader. I don't know if it's because so far the descriptions haven't had pictures, but I just don't get it.

(All miles were converted from kms and dollars were converted from euros. Roughly $1/mile = 0.5euros/km)
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Old October 16th, 2006, 05:13 AM   #31
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Wow. I don't even know if Hong Kong can place a mile of underground rail for $85 million.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 05:20 AM   #32
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Madrid and Hong Kong build km of subway, not stupid mile.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 06:09 AM   #33
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Keep in mind that Madrid had to tunnel through sand and clay and pay union wages. This is an E.U. country with an economy almost strong enough to be in the G-8.

And they got everything for under $85M/mile (or 42 mil euros/km):
Quote:
These projects, incorporating Metrosur and the Line 10 extension, included planning, civil works, electrical and mechanical installations, interchanges, maintenance facilities, and rolling stock at an average cost of $85 million/mile.
By the way, the expansions from 1995-98 were even cheaper (from the same link above):
Quote:
Four-year program of extensions involving 14 major contracts to build 23 miles of underground line with 35 stations and 11 miles of surface line with four stations resulted in the lowest cost/dollar and shortest commissioning time ever recorded. Tunnelled section brought in at below $70 million/mile including stations. Mainly driven using EPB machines with some cover-and-cut and traditional Madrid method. Design commenced August, 1995 and lines opened from mid-1998 progressively.
They're doing something special there. And I want to see the studies, and comparisons. I have a feeling the American taxpayer is getting milked big time.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 06:12 AM   #34
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I think one big way was simply a way that Spanish law works. I think that in the US, you own the land underneath you as well. In Spain, so I have been told, this goes only to a depth of 10 m. So as long as you dig 10.1 m deep or lower, it is considered communal property, so they don't have to compensate anyone (obviously they must do it safely).
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Old October 16th, 2006, 06:25 AM   #35
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I've been on Metrosur...It's a doozy indeed.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 09:49 AM   #36
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I have to admit I'd like to know how they do this as well. I have often pondered this question.

Madrid's metro expansion is a modern marvel and should be the inspiration of the world.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 11:41 AM   #37
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Quote:
I think one big way was simply a way that Spanish law works. I think that in the US, you own the land underneath you as well. In Spain, so I have been told, this goes only to a depth of 10 m. So as long as you dig 10.1 m deep or lower, it is considered communal property, so they don't have to compensate anyone (obviously they must do it safely).
The proposed Wilshire subway extension in Los Angeles is almost all under city streets. Estimates are $300-350 million/mile.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 12:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I'd like to know as much as I can about this incredible engineering feat, and I'd like to know how it can or can't be implemented in America, specifically in Los Angeles.
Quote:
Can someone please explain to me just how this was done, so quickly and so cheaply in a 1st-world country. Also, someone please explain the Madrid cut-and-cover method to me like a 3rd grader. I don't know if it's because so far the descriptions haven't had pictures, but I just don't get it.
Cut-and-cover method ("ejecución con pantallas"), from http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...4&postcount=10 (post by Carretero):


In that post you can also see the other methods used in Madrid's Metro and some very interesting links.

AFAIK, the cut-and cover method is mostly used for stations and the tunnels are mainly built using boring machines (EPB). The EPB method is also used now to build the tunnels for the M-30's south by-pass and cut-and-cover method is used to build the tunnes in the part along the river. M-30 is Madrid's inner beltway and it's being rebuilt. The project is led by Melis. See this post: http://skyscrapercity.com/showpost.p...&postcount=444



Quote:
Station architecture is an important factor, too. It should never be handed over to world-renowned architects. A transport project is a serious engineering work that should not be confused with a museum or an emblematic building for a city.

Last edited by balasto; October 17th, 2006 at 12:31 AM.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 11:54 PM   #39
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The most remarkable aspect of the Madrid Metro expansion projects in addition to the speed in which the lines are being built is the low cost. I've been posting everywhere I can and shooting off several emails to determine just how it was done so cheaply and asking how we can build subways at similar low cost in Los Angeles, where we desperately need a Manuel Melis clone. I even started a discussion in the subways forum, before I saw this one: MADRID: Give them 3 yrs & they'll give you 36 miles of subway at 85mil/mile. The 85 million American dollars/mile (or 42 mil Euros/km) is obviously in reference to the Metrosur and line 11 extension from 1999-2003. (Roughly 1 euro/km = 2 American dollars/mile)

The current estimate for the Los Angeles Wilshire subway extension is 150-175 million euros/km. So when I read this 2003 quote from Mr. Melis I immediately became obsessed with Madrid subway construction projects:
Quote:
"This latest project demonstrates again the importance of our philosophy. Many cities around the world desperately need new metro lines, but they cannot afford to build them at an estimated $150 million to $200 million euros/km, nor be forced to wait a dozen years for the lines to become reality. [color=red]The truth is that these estimates of costs and time are simply wrong.[/red] In Madrid, with all humbleness, we have now proved it on more than one occasion.
My hope is Melis' principles can be applied in Los Angeles to drastically cut the cost of our subway expansion proposals...or at least to spark that debate.
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Old October 17th, 2006, 06:02 AM   #40
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wow

i think the problem with the states is there are too many groups and too many with agendas

I was reading an article about how this one city wanted to implement a train/LRT but there was huge pressure from another group who said no use busses its cheaper blah blah blah even though the train people wanted and studied and knew busses would never give them the ridership a train/Lrt system would give them

it turns out the pro-bus group was being supported by the bus and gas and tire industries and it was more in their interest to have busses than to have trains

so so much time is wasted in the interest groups that get involved in the process
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