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Old October 17th, 2006, 04:19 PM   #41
balasto
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Originally Posted by spongeg View Post
I was reading an article about how this one city wanted to implement a train/LRT but there was huge pressure from another group who said no use busses its cheaper blah blah blah even though the train people wanted and studied and knew busses would never give them the ridership a train/Lrt system would give them

it turns out the pro-bus group was being supported by the bus and gas and tire industries and it was more in their interest to have busses than to have trains
That's an awful position! They don't realize that if the public transportation system improves (ie with trains), and people more will use use it, the ridership of other services (ie busses) will also grow. The enemy is the private transportation, not the public one.

In the region of Madrid all public transportation services are coordinated by a single public body (Consorcio de Transportes) and they are considered as components of a single system, complementing each other:
- Urban busses for short distance rides (ie they link areas with metro and commuter trains).
- Metro for medium distance rides
- Commuter busses and trains for long distance rides

If you look at the map (though it only shows railway services), you'll clearly see that all services are heavily linked.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 01:22 AM   #42
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That's unbelievable. It's taking my city about 15 years to build 14 miles of surface + underground lightrail!!
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Old October 18th, 2006, 10:59 AM   #43
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Madrid, definitely my cup of tea.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Iggui View Post
wow, an expansion of over 80km is bigger than most cities' metro systems, and on top of that a refurbishment of the lines! truly amazing. this is truly one of the great metro systems on the planet. i dream of the day santiago de chile's metro is even half that big.

!que viva españa! !que viva el metro de madrid, mi3rda!

Imposible decirlo mejor!


- - -> Madrid.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #45
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Serious lack of security

Madrid’s metro is wonderful, it covers completely the city center which is the main area of interest to the tourists. I visited it for the first time in 2005 and in general I was very satisfied, except for a minor incident I witnessed. A South-American looking man was sleeping on the seat. Then a young guy wearing glasses, looking like a student, sat down beside him. After a little while he started searching his pockets. He found his wallet, he opened it, took some banknotes and then put it back in the pocket! About 10 people saw what was going on but no-one reacted. Then the pickpocket stood up, said something in Arabic to his accomplice who was at the other side of the car and they both got off at the next stop.
If nothing is done about security, new extensions are pointless.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 06:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Madrid’s metro is wonderful, it covers completely the city center which is the main area of interest to the tourists. I visited it for the first time in 2005 and in general I was very satisfied, except for a minor incident I witnessed. A South-American looking man was sleeping on the seat. Then a young guy wearing glasses, looking like a student, sat down beside him. After a little while he started searching his pockets. He found his wallet, he opened it, took some banknotes and then put it back in the pocket! About 10 people saw what was going on but no-one reacted. Then the pickpocket stood up, said something in Arabic to his accomplice who was at the other side of the car and they both got off at the next stop.
If nothing is done about security, new extensions are pointless.
What the hell does this have to do with subway CONSTRUCTION.

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Old October 18th, 2006, 06:39 PM   #47
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Well, subways are constructed in order to be used by the people, not just to make construction companies rich. Another thing I noticed in the Madrid metro was that it was mainly used by people of low social classes and tourists. People who can afford to have a car seem to shun the subway. You don’t see many men in suit and tie, as in other cities. One reason is, of course, pickpockets.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 06:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Well, subways are constructed in order to be used by the people, not just to make construction companies rich. Another thing I noticed in the Madrid metro was that it was mainly used by people of low social classes and tourists. People who can afford to have a car seem to shun the subway. You don’t see many men in suit and tie, as in other cities. One reason is, of course, pickpockets.


Europe is not North America. You take the subway because it is the most convenient and least traffic prone method of transport.

Your comments are absolute absurd in general, and even more hilarious when you look at how far out of context they are in relation to the thread.

And your logic for including it might as well be, "well, subways ride underground, so let's talk about dirt"
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:23 PM   #49
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Dear DonQui, I know very well what this thread is all about. The difference is that I do not view metro systems as a mixture of tubes, stations and rolling stock. Passengers are what counts more than everything. If my posts bother you so much, from now on I'll post only in Spanish so that you cannot understand them. Bye!

Last edited by nastyathenian; October 18th, 2006 at 11:29 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:27 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Another thing I noticed in the Madrid metro was that it was mainly used by people of low social classes and tourists. People who can afford to have a car seem to shun the subway. You don’t see many men in suit and tie, as in other cities. One reason is, of course, pickpockets.
That means you haven't visited the Nuevos Ministerios station at rush hours . Madrid's Metro has a lot of security, but that doesn't means it's 100% secure. Neither you can expect a babysitter policeman for every metro user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Dear DonQui, I know very well what this thread is all about. The difference is that I do not view metro systems as a mixture of tubes, stations and rolling stock. Passengers are what counts more than everything. If my posts bother you so much, from now on I%u2019ll post only in Spanish so that you cannot understand them. Bye!
AFAIK, DonQui speaks Spanish If you want to post only in Spanish about this topic and any other topic, you're invited to the Madrid subforum.

Last edited by balasto; October 18th, 2006 at 11:32 PM.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:27 PM   #51
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Dear DonQui, I know very well what this thread is all about. The difference is that I do not view metro systems as a mixture of tubes, stations and rolling stock. Passengers are what counts more than everything. If my posts bother you so much, from now on I’ll post only in Spanish so that you cannot understand them. Bye!

Enhorabuena a los Madrileños por la enorme red de metro de que disponen. El ritmo de ampliación es rapidísimo, comparable sólo con el del metro de Seúl. Las obras actuales son impesionantes, aunque la ampliación del metro propiamente dicho sea “sólo” de 53 kms. El tranvía no se puede sumar al metro pesado. En todas las ciudades donde existe es desesperadamente lento. Tendría sentido construirlo en el centro de Madrid como atracción turística. El pasajero podría p.e. admirar las incomparables fachadas de Gran Vía. Pero para las afueras de una grande ciudad no hay mejor medio de transporte que el tren de cercanías.
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:40 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Enhorabuena a los Madrileños por la enorme red de metro de que disponen. El ritmo de ampliación es rapidísimo, comparable sólo con el del metro de Seúl. Las obras actuales son impesionantes, aunque la ampliación del metro propiamente dicho sea “sólo” de 53 kms. El tranvía no se puede sumar al metro pesado. En todas las ciudades donde existe es desesperadamente lento. Tendría sentido construirlo en el centro de Madrid como atracción turística. El pasajero podría p.e. admirar las incomparables fachadas de Gran Vía. Pero para las afueras de una grande ciudad no hay mejor medio de transporte que el tren de cercanías.
You have to take in account that light metro is being built in low population density areas where other services don't suit so well and its purpose is to link those areas with "heavy" services (Metro, Cercanías).
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Old October 18th, 2006, 11:54 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Dear DonQui, I know very well what this thread is all about. The difference is that I do not view metro systems as a mixture of tubes, stations and rolling stock. Passengers are what counts more than everything. If my posts bother you so much, from now on I’ll post only in Spanish so that you cannot understand them. Bye!

Enhorabuena a los Madrileños por la enorme red de metro de que disponen. El ritmo de ampliación es rapidísimo, comparable sólo con el del metro de Seúl. Las obras actuales son impesionantes, aunque la ampliación del metro propiamente dicho sea “sólo” de 53 kms. El tranvía no se puede sumar al metro pesado. En todas las ciudades donde existe es desesperadamente lento. Tendría sentido construirlo en el centro de Madrid como atracción turística. El pasajero podría p.e. admirar las incomparables fachadas de Gran Vía. Pero para las afueras de una grande ciudad no hay mejor medio de transporte que el tren de cercanías.
Quien te ha dicho que no entiendo la lengua castellana?

Curious that your comments in Spanish are the only ones that relate to the thread, and the comments in English bear no relationship whatsoever.

Tram down the Gran Via? There is not enough space! Transport should NEVER be oriented simply towards tourism!
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Old October 19th, 2006, 12:10 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Dear DonQui, I know very well what this thread is all about. The difference is that I do not view metro systems as a mixture of tubes, stations and rolling stock. Passengers are what counts more than everything. If my posts bother you so much, from now on I’ll post only in Spanish so that you cannot understand them. Bye!

Enhorabuena a los Madrileños por la enorme red de metro de que disponen. El ritmo de ampliación es rapidísimo, comparable sólo con el del metro de Seúl. Las obras actuales son impesionantes, aunque la ampliación del metro propiamente dicho sea “sólo” de 53 kms. El tranvía no se puede sumar al metro pesado. En todas las ciudades donde existe es desesperadamente lento. Tendría sentido construirlo en el centro de Madrid como atracción turística. El pasajero podría p.e. admirar las incomparables fachadas de Gran Vía. Pero para las afueras de una grande ciudad no hay mejor medio de transporte que el tren de cercanías.

And let people walk 2 or 3 kilometres from the Cercanías station to their homes... That's a Stupid comment!

I tihink the Tram or Light Metro is a perfect way of transport. The Light Metro connects the Metro lines 1 and 4 at Pinar de Chamartin station and line 10 at Las Tablas. In the future there will be a Cercanías station at the south of the Sanchinarro district, which is connected to the Light Metro.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 12:30 AM   #55
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Madrid and reset of Spain never ceases to amaze me in constructions like this. Why can't the reset of the West learn from them?
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Old October 19th, 2006, 06:57 AM   #56
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the problem is funding, that and Los Angeles has to comply with very strict earthquake codes, madrid did not. Madrid also was given money by the EU to do it all at once. In LA we build what we can with limited funds, and when the funds run out we stop, after we have the money again we start. It costs more that way but its the only way we can do it without taking massive billion dollar bonds that the state wont let the city take.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 07:19 AM   #57
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the problem is funding, that and Los Angeles has to comply with very strict earthquake codes, madrid did not. Madrid also was given money by the EU to do it all at once. In LA we build what we can with limited funds, and when the funds run out we stop, after we have the money again we start. It costs more that way but its the only way we can do it without taking massive billion dollar bonds that the state wont let the city take.
Funding is irrelevante if we are talking about the amazing ability to construct subways cheaply.

The money could have come from Timbuktu for all I care. I want to know how they can use this money so efficiently.

And no, Madrid only received funding for the L8 of the metro. The rest was not done via EU funds, which typically go to more disadvantaged regions.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 08:27 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian View Post
Madrid’s metro is wonderful, it covers completely the city center which is the main area of interest to the tourists. I visited it for the first time in 2005 and in general I was very satisfied, except for a minor incident I witnessed. A South-American looking man was sleeping on the seat. Then a young guy wearing glasses, looking like a student, sat down beside him. After a little while he started searching his pockets. He found his wallet, he opened it, took some banknotes and then put it back in the pocket! About 10 people saw what was going on but no-one reacted. Then the pickpocket stood up, said something in Arabic to his accomplice who was at the other side of the car and they both got off at the next stop.
If nothing is done about security, new extensions are pointless.
If you really found this shocking, you should have done something about it. To be honest, I am amazed that you didn't.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 11:24 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyathenian
Madrid’s metro is wonderful, it covers completely the city center which is the main area of interest to the tourists. I visited it for the first time in 2005 and in general I was very satisfied, except for a minor incident I witnessed. A South-American looking man was sleeping on the seat. Then a young guy wearing glasses, looking like a student, sat down beside him. After a little while he started searching his pockets. He found his wallet, he opened it, took some banknotes and then put it back in the pocket! About 10 people saw what was going on but no-one reacted. Then the pickpocket stood up, said something in Arabic to his accomplice who was at the other side of the car and they both got off at the next stop.
If nothing is done about security, new extensions are pointless.
As a Madrid Metro user, I have to say that our metro network is very safe. Strange things like the one you tell us are isolated. Why didn't you do something to avoid that situation? Were you afraid? Don't criticize people for the same thing you do. It's like being a hypocrite.
Madrid Metro users are very mixed. You can see from the typical housewives carrying their children to the school to suited men-in-black going to the office in AZCA, for example.
The metro is very popular and the perception we, people of Madrid, have of it is quite positive and functional.
We are so glad to have one of the best networks in the world... and looking forward to see the expansions opened this autumn and next spring.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 11:51 AM   #60
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Building off of DonQui's statement, $1 billion at $85 million/mile is about 11.5 miles, which is almost the entire length of the Wilshire subway (13.4 miles). Current cost estimates by the Los Angeles County MTA of $300-350 million per mile means that $1 billion only gets us 3 miles from the current Wilshire/Western terminus to Fairfax. The lack of efficiency and high cost is what prevent us from building a system quickly and forces us to build our system in these segments.

We could get a $5 billion dollar bond passed in this county for subway construction and with state and federal matching funds we could probably find ourselves with $3-5 billion more (or we could just say screw the feds and take out the whole $10 billion ourselves; we spent $19.4 billion on new schools). At $85 mil/mile that's 94 - 117 miles of subway. That so much subway its not even funny. But at 300-350 a mile that's 26-33 miles of subway. You tell me which the public is more likely to support: a $5 billion bond plan that covers 117 miles of subway or a $5 billion bond that gets us 33 miles of subway?

And regarding the earthquake codes, I seriously doubt that amounts to $215-315 million/per mile more. The $300-400 million/mile estimate is consistent across America and it was singled out by Melis so I think its safe to say there are more similarities among tunneling standards across the world in 1st world countries than we think. Suggesting Spain, with an economy almost strong enough to be in the G-8 and which recently endured serious terrorist attacks has significantly lower construction standards is laughable to some. In many respects Madrid probably faced a more difficult challenge. There are segments where they had to bore through sand and clay.
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