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Old June 4th, 2010, 06:01 AM   #361
PortoNuts
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From 23 May:

Croydon joins Tube network as East London line extension opens

One of the most important days in Croydon's transport history arrives today (Sunday) as the town finally makes its appearance on the iconic Tube map.

And with the opening of the East London line's extension to West Croydon, it is widely accepted, will come massive growth and job opportunities for both individuals and the town as a whole.

It will make access to jobs in London easier and raise Croydon's status as a business destination.

The line, although officially part of the Tube network, is dubbed London Overground with its own distinctive trains.

The 14-mile line, running to Dalston in north London, has cost £1 billion with another £500 million being spent on providing 57 new trains.

On the southern section trains will run on existing Network Rail track from New Cross Gate to Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction and West Croydon.

Four trains an hour will run into West Croydon, with the frequency remaining the same throughout the day, with no reduction outside peak hours.

The services will be dovetailed with existing Southern services to provide passengers with more choice.

According to Ian Brown, managing director of London Rail for Transport for London, the importance of the extension cannot be underestimated.

He said: "For local people and local businesses in Croydon it will make a heck of difference and when people realise just how easy it will be to get into the City it will prove to be quite something."

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...l/article.html
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Old June 5th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #362
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Couple more pics of the Class 378 trains. I really like them.





http://www.flickr.com/photos/tompage...88422/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tompage...31838/sizes/l/
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Old June 7th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #363
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Peculiar. The door doesn't go with the train (no more drip protector above the doorways?), plus I'd have thought equipment below the undercarriage would be masked; mind you, it's relieving to know you can still open a window
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Old June 7th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #364
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Peculiar. The door doesn't go with the train (no more drip protector above the doorways?), plus I'd have thought equipment below the undercarriage would be masked; mind you, it's relieving to know you can still open a window
Looks like there's a lip to catch rainwater the length of the car just above the thin orange OHLE warning line. And the 'exposed' equipment is entirely normal, it's just unusual to see it so pristine and clean... In a few weeks it'll all be the same uniform dark colour.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 08:34 PM   #365
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Peculiar. The door doesn't go with the train (no more drip protector above the doorways?), plus I'd have thought equipment below the undercarriage would be masked; mind you, it's relieving to know you can still open a window
Just because it has windows that are capable of being open doesn't mean the passengers can actually open them. Normally on air conditioned trains with windows such as these the windows are locked and to be opened must be first unlocked by a staff member.
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Old June 8th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #366
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Overground trains are very beautiful!
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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:26 AM   #367
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Yes, they are really wide, clean and spacious. The best of the best.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #368
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/tompage...88847/sizes/l/
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Old June 10th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #369
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Will the West, North, East and South London lines be directly linked to make a service that goes around Zone 2 from Clapham Junction to Clapham Junction? London Overground does include the Orbirail concept after all. The point of the service is to get people around London without entering central London, but it's going to be mocked if you have to change trains to get from Camden Road to Shoreditch High Street when there's potential for just one train ride. Why didn't tfl link the East London Line directly to the North London line? I mean, they say they have, but really, they've just extended the East London Line alongside, which to me, seems stupid.


(I'm new by the way - I've been reading posts to check on projects for years but I never actually thought to register and contribute)
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Old June 10th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #370
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The trains look even better with people covering that god awful upholstery

btw is there a reason they didn't include any sections with seats facing across instead of along the walls?
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Old June 10th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #371
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btw is there a reason they didn't include any sections with seats facing across instead of along the walls?
With the seats along the walls you can fit more people on because more people can stand. It is also easier to get off when the train is crowded.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #372
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I personally prefer seats along the walls exactly for the reason you mentioned and, apart from the rush hour, it's not as claustrophobic as it would be otherwise.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 09:02 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrow + London View Post
Will the West, North, East and South London lines be directly linked to make a service that goes around Zone 2 from Clapham Junction to Clapham Junction? London Overground does include the Orbirail concept after all. The point of the service is to get people around London without entering central London, but it's going to be mocked if you have to change trains to get from Camden Road to Shoreditch High Street when there's potential for just one train ride. Why didn't tfl link the East London Line directly to the North London line? I mean, they say they have, but really, they've just extended the East London Line alongside, which to me, seems stupid.


(I'm new by the way - I've been reading posts to check on projects for years but I never actually thought to register and contribute)
No, it's not planned to be one single service. I think it's a shame, but the logic is it will be so long and would have to cross so many flat junctions and be so prone to delays due to freight services that it would be nigh on impossible to maintain a reliable timetable. Certainly even when the Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington section reopens next year, the configuration at the Highbury end will preclude trains from continuing on to Camden Road (there will be a physical connection, but just a bi-directional single track).

I'd expect there will be at best 2 horseshoe services; Clapham to Highbury via Peckham Rye and Clapham to Stratford via Camden.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #374
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Quote:
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No, it's not planned to be one single service. I think it's a shame, but the logic is it will be so long and would have to cross so many flat junctions and be so prone to delays due to freight services that it would be nigh on impossible to maintain a reliable timetable. Certainly even when the Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington section reopens next year, the configuration at the Highbury end will preclude trains from continuing on to Camden Road (there will be a physical connection, but just a bi-directional single track).

I'd expect there will be at best 2 horseshoe services; Clapham to Highbury via Peckham Rye and Clapham to Stratford via Camden.
Another thought is that trains running in circles are hard to schedule. At some point the train will need to be held for timing, recovery, driver needs a rest, etc. London Underground recently changed the Circle Line because of operaitonal problems.

Another consideration is equipment needs on each section - East London might have different needs (capacity, operations) than other lines.

Seems easier and cheaper to operate in segments as planned.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:59 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onetwothree View Post
btw is there a reason they didn't include any sections with seats facing across instead of along the walls?

People don't like that arrangement, its too cramped and physically and socially awkward getting in and out. You only have to watch people's behaviour on trains that have them to see this. Spare seats go unused when they are facing each other but those along the walls get snapped up,
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Old June 11th, 2010, 03:32 AM   #376
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Personally, it was an excellent idea for the newest Overground rolling stock to have longitudinal seating. I wish the new rolling stock of Thameslink and Crossrail also had longitudinal seating.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 11:32 AM   #377
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Quote:
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No, it's not planned to be one single service. I think it's a shame, but the logic is it will be so long and would have to cross so many flat junctions and be so prone to delays due to freight services that it would be nigh on impossible to maintain a reliable timetable. Certainly even when the Dalston Junction to Highbury & Islington section reopens next year, the configuration at the Highbury end will preclude trains from continuing on to Camden Road (there will be a physical connection, but just a bi-directional single track).

I'd expect there will be at best 2 horseshoe services; Clapham to Highbury via Peckham Rye and Clapham to Stratford via Camden.
Quote:
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Another thought is that trains running in circles are hard to schedule. At some point the train will need to be held for timing, recovery, driver needs a rest, etc. London Underground recently changed the Circle Line because of operaitonal problems.

Another consideration is equipment needs on each section - East London might have different needs (capacity, operations) than other lines.

Seems easier and cheaper to operate in segments as planned.
Cheers! That does make sense and perhaps a bigger version of LU's old Circle line isn't what London needs if it wants to improve reliability. Still, it is slightly disappointing but ...

Last edited by Harrow + London; June 11th, 2010 at 11:43 AM.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 12:31 PM   #378
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Cheers! That does make sense and perhaps a bigger version of LU's old Circle line isn't what London needs if it wants to improve reliability. Still, it is slightly disappointing but ...
The North London and West London sections of the London Overground 'orbital' have a very restricted passenger capacity because they are used heavily for freight. This is why half the East London line trains will stop at Dalston Junction and the rest stop at H&I.

A continuous orbital service would need to miss out Clapham Junction or have a new tube section between c.Battersea Queenstown Road and Stamford Bridge. Obviously a lowish frequency service can't justify spending a couple of billions on a new underground section and there is no point in missing out Clapham Junction.

What you have instead is a tear-shaped orbital service with Clapham Junction being the point of the tear (maybe call it the Teardrop line...) but as mentioned elsewhere the restrictions mean there isn't a continuous Clapham Junction-Clapham Junction service, though there might be in future.

For an orbital based on Victorian lines to work it would probably need a lot of upgrade and overlapping services e.g. Clapham Junction-Clapham Junction and Dalston Junction-Dalston Junction (or Stratford-Stratford). That means extra tracks (4-track West London, possibly taking over Watford suburban services between Primrose Hill and Queen's Park), new sections, segregation and no/less flat junctions. A lot of money would be spent but you would get high frequency services and you might also improve interchanges at the same time (i.e. detouring via Camden Town, Earl's Court, east-west under Dalston Junction and Clapham Junction).

It would only be worth while though if the demand was there and public spending has all but disappeared.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:25 PM   #379
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What LO should do is properly rebuild (as opposed to refurbish) half of the North London Line. I mean stations like Hampstead Heath, Canonbury and Hackney Wich are just ugly. Especially before 2012, when more people will be using it to get to Stratford. Still, rebuilding is unlikely, as like everything else on this planet, it comes down to the same thing - MONEY!

Also, why isn't a Crossrail station being planned at City Airport? It passes really close to the site after all. They're reconstructing the Connaught tunnel, but its just a bit too far away from the site, so instead, why don't they rebuild it so that it passes closer to the airport and build a station there? The DLR service is brilliant and all but despite what people say, access to Canary Wharf isn't direct (you need to change at Poplar, and changing is annoying when you have luggage and jet-lag) and access to Central London gives a choice of just 2 stations. Bank is great - smack bang in the middle of the City and a wealth of possible interchanges, but again, changing, which is even harder here than at Poplar, due to the walking and the crowds! Tower Gateway is useless - poor interchange and mostly only useful to those visiting Tower Bridge/of London. Crossrail would bring direct links to Canary Wharf and more areas of zone 1.

Last edited by Harrow + London; June 11th, 2010 at 01:31 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #380
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What LO should do is properly rebuild (as opposed to refurbish) half of the North London Line. I mean stations like Hampstead Heath, Canonbury and Hackney Wich are just ugly. Especially before 2012, when more people will be using it to get to Stratford. Still, rebuilding is unlikely, as like everything else on this planet, it comes down to the same thing - MONEY!

Also, why isn't a Crossrail station being planned at City Airport? The DLR service is brilliant and all but despite what people say, access to Canary Wharf isn't direct (you need to change at Poplar, and changing is annoying when you have luggage and jet-lag) and access to Central London gives a choice of just 2 stations. Bank is great - smack bang in the middle of the City and a wealth of possible interchanges, but again, changing, which is even harder here than at Poplar, due to the walking and the crowds! Tower Gateway is useless - poor interchange and mostly only useful to those visiting Tower Bridge/of London.
I believe there is passive provision for a station at Connaught Bridge/LCA as there is for stations at Holborn and Limehouse.

Just another point about 'Orbirail' (see also Ring Rail from about the same time as Cross Rail c. 1960's): ideally it would skirt current/future central and inner areas like Chelsea, Bermondsey, Canary Wharf, Bethnal Green and Camden and go through the major rail nodal hubs of Clapham Junction, Willesden Junction/Old Oak common HST and Stratford/Stratford International. The West London, South London and half the North London fit this well, but the East London is between the centre and Canary Wharf and also a radial route plus via ELL means missing out Stratford. I would include Dalston-Stratford-Canning Town and Peckham Rye-Surrey Canal Road (which would become part of a SE transport hub) and link the two with a new section via Mudchute and blackwall and going to the east of Canary Wharf as well as my earlier suggestion of Primrose Hill-Queen's Park-Willesden Junction as there's hardly space for even a passing loop on the freight-saturated NLL between Camden Road and Willesden Junction.
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