LONDON | Network Rail: Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail

[ajw373]

Originally Posted by iampuking

240m trains by the way. Longer than the comparable RER trains which are 200m I believe. They're also nearly twice as long as the longest LU trains with are 130m, and of course they will be significantly wider.

What worries me is that the trains will have only 2 doors per car, and a transverse seating layout to please the suburban whiners who insist on having seats for the entire journey at the expence of a high frequency inner city service...

I agree that 2 doors is probably not enough, maybe 3 would have been better. But as for the seating, you gotta remember that this is mainly designed to get the longer distance commuter into the West End and City without having to change to the tube at places like Paddington and Liverpool street. So the seating makes perfect sense.

[Winterstar]

I have to agree that having only two doors per carraige is a cause for concern.

As somebody who uses both the Underground and Overground in my commute, I much prefer using the Underground, for the simple reason that it's much quicker to get on and off the trains. I'd take more doors over more seating area anyday (though whether those who would be commuting from outside of London agree with me on this is another matter entirely!).

When the Overground stops at an interchange such as say Highbury and Islington, it takes a fair time to get off the thing if you're half way down the carriage, and then of course is the matter of those wanting to get on.

Running 24tph with two door carriages through central London interchanges... Those doors had better be wide! Hopefully the length of the trains will offset this somewhat.

[sarflonlad]

Originally Posted by Winterstar

I have to agree that having only two doors per carraige is a cause for concern.

As somebody who uses both the Underground and Overground in my commute, I much prefer using the Underground, for the simple reason that it's much quicker to get on and off the trains. I'd take more doors over more seating area anyday (though whether those who would be commuting from outside of London agree with me on this is another matter entirely!).

When the Overground stops at an interchange such as say Highbury and Islington, it takes a fair time to get off the thing if you're half way down the carriage, and then of course is the matter of those wanting to get on.

Running 24tph with two door carriages through central London interchanges... Those doors had better be wide! Hopefully the length of the trains will offset this somewhat.

24tph is less than most peak tube lines. So there is plenty of dwell time to alight - however, I agree, 3 doors would be far superior.

We must bear in mind though, CR really is not designed for your average Londoner in zones 1-3. It's not a new tube line.

[Minato ku]

Originally Posted by iampuking

240m trains by the way. Longer than the comparable RER trains which are 200m I believe. They're also nearly twice as long as the longest LU trains with are 130m, and of course they will be significantly wider.

What worries me is that the trains will have only 2 doors per car, and a transverse seating layout to please the suburban whiners who insist on having seats for the entire journey at the expence of a high frequency inner city service...

If we speak of comparable so I excluded SNCF RER (The RER D have 320m trains in rush hours).

MS61 (8 cars, four doors per car) = 220m
MI79/84 (9 cars, four doors per car) = 209m
MI2N (10 cars, three doors per car) ) = 225m

If we compare the number of doors
Crossrail train = 24 (240m)
MI2N = 30 (225m)
MI79/84 = 32 (209m)
MS61 = 36 (220m)
JR E231-500 = 48 (220m Yamanote line)

So excepted if the Crossrail trains have wider doors than the MI2N, I have some doubt about the capacity of 72,000 passengers per hours and even more with transversal seat.

MI2N doors

[micro]

For all the tourists, Crossrail should have a stop at Oxford Circus.

[iampuking]

Originally Posted by Winterstar

I have to agree that having only two doors per carraige is a cause for concern.

As somebody who uses both the Underground and Overground in my commute, I much prefer using the Underground, for the simple reason that it's much quicker to get on and off the trains. I'd take more doors over more seating area anyday (though whether those who would be commuting from outside of London agree with me on this is another matter entirely!).

When the Overground stops at an interchange such as say Highbury and Islington, it takes a fair time to get off the thing if you're half way down the carriage, and then of course is the matter of those wanting to get on.

Running 24tph with two door carriages through central London interchanges... Those doors had better be wide! Hopefully the length of the trains will offset this somewhat.

The thing is, having two doors per car limits the frequency if it ever needs to be increased in the future, especially if the platform screen doors are going to be designed around the trains. What if 24tph and 240m is insufficient a decade or so after opening?

I also doubt that the trains will be packed until after Stratford, so people who are going to be on the trains the longest will probably get their seats.

Originally Posted by sarflonlad

24tph is less than most peak tube lines. So there is plenty of dwell time to alight - however, I agree, 3 doors would be far superior.

We must bear in mind though, CR really is not designed for your average Londoner in zones 1-3. It's not a new tube line.

As i've said, the entire capacity is limited by the amount of trains that can get through the central section. So long dwell times in Zone 1 WILL adversely affect non London passengers.

Anyway I have a personal gripe about this. Why should non London passengers, who already have massive homes with tonnes of space, get all of the seats and leg room whilst the Londoners who get on later will have to squeeze in between a stupid transverse layout when Londoners will bear the brunt of the disruption caused by the construction of Crossrail? You could put up the argument that they're "managing our economy" but, oh, wait...

Originally Posted by micro

For all the tourists, Crossrail should have a stop at Oxford Circus.

Both the tube station and the circus themselves are too crowded as it is without massive Crossrail trains pouring their passengers into them...

[Republica]

Are you lot sure about the 2 door thing yet....?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXEMU

They havent even decided who will make the trains.

All it says about the spec:

To this end the need for a new class of urban rolling stock has been created. The spec for the trains includes ATO (Automatic Train Operation) as well as ability to have 1,000 people at once board or alight the train with headways as low as 120 seconds. The units may be dual voltage (the Thameslink/First Capital Connect units will be dual voltage) and should be able to work with Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) just like on the recent Jubilee Line Extension.

[iampuking]

Most recent illustrations have shown 2 doors per car... There was a discussion about it in the Crossrail thread in the UK forums.

[Minato ku]

So the 2 doors per car claim is just based on the illustrations. I though that it was more serious.
Honestly the rolling stock that I saw in the illustrations were trains with ugly early 90's design. I doubt that the reality will be like that.

iampuking, don't worry too much

[rheintram]

Honestly, I don't understand why they always build platform doors these days. I understand the security concerns, but imo the disatvantages that come with it are much more severe.

Crossrail will be built according to heavy rail specifications with the larger continental European profile and overhead wiring. Which means it's compatible with a large number of existing railstock already available. What I'm saying is: If one day you discover that you want to bind trains trough from other tracks, or you wanna buy new rolling stock, you have more freedom, because you don't need to worry whether they would fit in with the platform doors.

[Yardmaster]

Anyway, congratulations London. I've had images of this project in a folder for at least five years now. Good to see a bit of financial stimulus in the right place.

[Republica]

Maybe one day we could stick a tgv down there haha! The platforms are long enough.

[gramercy]

this money should be spent on true HSR from glasgow to heathrow..

[sweek]

Originally Posted by micro

For all the tourists, Crossrail should have a stop at Oxford Circus.

It pretty much does. Due to the size of these stations, one exit of Bond Street station will be on Hanover Square,, which is just off Oxford Circus. They could've connected the stations but don't want to because Oxford Circus can't take the traffic.

[sarflonlad]

Originally Posted by rheintram

Honestly, I don't understand why they always build platform doors these days. I understand the security concerns, but imo the disatvantages that come with it are much more severe.

Crossrail will be built according to heavy rail specifications with the larger continental European profile and overhead wiring. Which means it's compatible with a large number of existing railstock already available. What I'm saying is: If one day you discover that you want to bind trains trough from other tracks, or you wanna buy new rolling stock, you have more freedom, because you don't need to worry whether they would fit in with the platform doors.

In this case however I suspect it might actually be due to air-con. That's the principle behind PEDs in new metros these days.

In London, PEDs thus far (Jubilee Line extension) are for safety following the effects of the Kings Cross fire. i.e. Trains pumped new air in to a burning underground station - PEDs reduce that. And prevent suicides.

Actually worth noting - the Jubilee line trains, prior to the extension, had single doors only!! They were scrapped as soon as the extension went forward and wide double doors introduced.

[micro]

Originally Posted by rheintram

Honestly, I don't understand why they always build platform doors these days. I understand the security concerns, but imo the disatvantages that come with it are much more severe.

Would you like to have a canyon in your living room?

[rheintram]

Originally Posted by micro

Would you like to have a canyon in your living room?

No I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't like a train going through my living room every few minutes either

@sarflonlad: This sounds reasonable, however I wonder why they need air-conditioning down there? Usually underground tunnels are pretty cool, without any artificial cooling.

[sarflonlad]

Originally Posted by rheintram

@sarflonlad: This sounds reasonable, however I wonder why they need air-conditioning down there? Usually underground tunnels are pretty cool, without any artificial cooling.

These are the words of a man who has never traveled on LU!

It reaches way in to the 40s+ in temperature during the summer months on LU. The humidity is also insanely high!

[Republica]

There are endless problems on the tube with heat.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...hive/3564.aspx

[iampuking]

Originally Posted by Minato ku

So the 2 doors per car claim is just based on the illustrations. I though that it was more serious.
Honestly the rolling stock that I saw in the illustrations were trains with ugly early 90's design. I doubt that the reality will be like that.

iampuking, don't worry too much

Crossrail will use the same trains as Thameslink, the specifications for Thameslink trains is for "16 doors per 8 car train", i.e. 2 doors per cars...

There are other things to worry about this project as well, such as the boring station design with lamentable passenger flow...

Originally Posted by rheintram

Crossrail will be built according to heavy rail specifications with the larger continental European profile and overhead wiring. Which means it's compatible with a large number of existing railstock already available. What I'm saying is: If one day you discover that you want to bind trains trough from other tracks, or you wanna buy new rolling stock, you have more freedom, because you don't need to worry whether they would fit in with the platform doors.

I think they want Crossrail to be self-contained as it increases efficiency and reliability.