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Old August 11th, 2005, 11:07 AM   #41
Mojito
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I have some questions about the East London Line: I know it is part of London Underground now. Stations are marked with the traditional LU Roundel and the trains are the same as on the Metropolitan Line.

Will this change after the completion of the extensions? On this site they mention a national rail 'Metro' type service.

The picture shows a new Class 376 trainset. (I searched railfaneurope for a better picture):



I expected they would use the same new sub-surface stock as ordered by LU.



Will the new East London Line still be part of LU, with different trains, (and if so, will the trains be painted in the LU red-white-and-blue or keep their own colours) or will it 'leave' the Underground Network and become part of national rail services?

Last edited by Mojito; August 11th, 2005 at 11:19 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2005, 12:20 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito
I have some questions about the East London Line: I know it is part of London Underground now. Stations are marked with the traditional LU Roundel and the trains are the same as on the Metropolitan Line.

Will this change after the completion of the extensions? On this site they mention a national rail 'Metro' type service.

The picture shows a new Class 376 trainset. (I searched railfaneurope for a better picture):



I expected they would use the same new sub-surface stock as ordered by LU.



Will the new East London Line still be part of LU, with different trains, (and if so, will the trains be painted in the LU red-white-and-blue or keep their own colours) or will it 'leave' the Underground Network and become part of national rail services?
It will transfer to Network Rail upon completion of the works. I don't know if anyone knows whether the roundels will disappear from the existing stations or not; I suspect it may be re-branded with a new identity. Around about the time of the Phase 1 extensions opening the Metropolitan Line A60 Stock will be retiring (at the ripe old age of 50 years old!) so I don't know if the ELL will use the universal "Sub-Surface" stock being introduced to the Metropolitan, H&C, Circle and District Lines or if it will get its own stock. The line can be worked by existing Southern Region EMUs clearance-wise; its just the power suplly which is a problem right now (4th rail DC not 3rd rail).
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Old August 11th, 2005, 01:11 PM   #43
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What is the difference between 3rd and 4th rail? Is a 4th rail situated between the tracks, instead of next to it?

I remember the Richmond branch of the District Line, where the ugly (but comfortable and spacious) D-stock trains and North London Line trains shared the same tracks, and I remember that I saw two extra rails, I guess indeed for power supply. One was situated right in the middle of the two normal rails and the other was situated next to the track.
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Old August 12th, 2005, 12:32 AM   #44
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wow ive just realised something i cant blieve i missed, all the overground trains have some yellow at the front!

bar the old steam ones, which have red.
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:03 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica
wow ive just realised something i cant blieve i missed, all the overground trains have some yellow at the front!

bar the old steam ones, which have red.
Its for visibility
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:18 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojito
What is the difference between 3rd and 4th rail? Is a 4th rail situated between the tracks, instead of next to it?

I remember the Richmond branch of the District Line, where the ugly (but comfortable and spacious) D-stock trains and North London Line trains shared the same tracks, and I remember that I saw two extra rails, I guess indeed for power supply. One was situated right in the middle of the two normal rails and the other was situated next to the track.
Both 3rd and 4th rail systems are DC (Direct Current) supplies...

Charles Tyson Yerkes decided upon the 4th rail system for UERL (London Underground's predescessor); it has a central "Negative" Current Rail in between the two running rails and a "Positive" just outside one of the running rails (usually the left one). The Negative carries 210V DC and the Positive 420V DC, which gives a total of 630V. This sytem was also adopted by the London & North-Western railway (out of Euston) for its suburban services, and also the North London Railway which ran out of Broad Street Station (now demolished), much of the North London Railway network is now better known as the Silverlink Metro (North London Line).



^
Left to right: Left hand running rail, Negative current rail, right hand running rail, Positive current rail

When the Southern Railway (basically all the commuter routes south of the Thames) began electrification in the 1920's, it chose a single 3rd rail carrying 650-700V DC with the return via the running rail. This system is now universal across Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hampshire etc and has since also replaced the 4th rail system on the North London Line and ex-LNWR routes. The only exception is where London Underground trains share Network rail route and vice versa, e.g. Gunnersbury to Richmond, East Putney to Wimbledon and Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone, where there is still a 4th rail system.



^
3rd rail; single current rail outside left-hand running rail... note in the foreground it is outside the right-hand running rails; this is because the photo is taken from a station platform, and through platforms the current rails are as far away from the edge as possible (i.e. in the middle)
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:30 AM   #47
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I travelled with the trains in London, and I liked it. The third rail reminds me of the system here in Oslo for the tube system:


How fast can the train go on such third rail system?

Regards,
Michal
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:37 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiDelf
I travelled with the trains in London, and I liked it. The third rail reminds me of the system here in Oslo for the tube system:


How fast can the train go on such third rail system?

Regards,
Michal
The Wessex Electrics that travel from Weymouth to Waterloo use the 3rd rail method and they can reach 100mph (160 kmh).
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:39 AM   #49
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Nice, very nice. And there is no crossovers I hope
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Old August 12th, 2005, 02:40 AM   #50
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Tubeman you mentioned new metropolitan line trains. When are they coming? and will all the older trains be replaced?
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Old August 12th, 2005, 10:35 AM   #51
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@ Tubeman:

thanks for the explanation. It's much more clear now!
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Old August 12th, 2005, 11:27 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmiDelf
I travelled with the trains in London, and I liked it. The third rail reminds me of the system here in Oslo for the tube system:


How fast can the train go on such third rail system?

Regards,
Michal
The 3rd rail in this picture of Oslo is identical to that on the DLR (Dockland's Light railway)...



It is a "safer" system than conventional 3rd rail as the live part is concealed... you can safely touch the top edge of it.

As an interesting aside, the 300 km/h Eurostars currently use 3rd rail for the last leg of the current journey into London, so it could be argued that these are the fastest trains with current shoes (not that they get anywhere near this speed over 3rd rail infrastructure).

Thameslink, some Silverlink Metro and some WAGN services also use dual 3rd rail and 25kv AC overhead supply. Thameslink trains raise / lower their pantographs at Farringdon as they pass from Southern Region onto the former Midland Railway, WAGN services to Moorgate via Highbury switch to 3rd rail for the former London Underground tunnel section (not enough room for overhead wires in the tunnel), and in a trip from Richmond to North Woolwich a Silverlink train switches from 3rd rail to overhead AC and back again!
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Old August 12th, 2005, 11:59 AM   #53
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Thanks for the reply. I have travelled with it, very nice system. I hope to come back sometime. And T2000 here in Oslo can become wagons without a driver, but they never did it as T2000 became way to expensive for some reason.

Yes I like it, and it looks safer.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:16 PM   #54
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The London Train Thread

A picture thread showing a selection of trains that serve London (not including London Underground trains though). The following pictures show normal high + low frequency commuter trains and specialist historic steam trains that go on tours of the UK (eg Cathedral Express - visits the Cathedrals of England). Several of London's termini are also shown - points for naming which ones are in the following photos! Enjoy!




























































































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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:28 PM   #55
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cool!



Here's the Gatwick Express.

It operates between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport:





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Old June 20th, 2007, 02:50 PM   #56
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Hong Kong firm to run London's new overground system

Hong Kong firm to run London's new overground system

By Cliff Feltham
Published: 20 June 2007

A company with a near unbeatable record in train punctuality is to take over a huge slice of London's rail and train network.

Hong Kong based MTR, in partnership with the old established UK firm of John Laing, is to operate the capital's so-called London Overground system - stitching together the creaking North London Line and the soon to be modernised East London tube line.

But the deal has already run into fierce opposition from RMT, the largest rail union, claiming that switching ownership of the East London line to a mainline operator amounted to backdoor privatisation. The union warned of possible industrial action.

Mayor Ken Livingstone, the architect of the proposals, said that joining rail networks in the north and east ahead of the 2012 Olympic Games will "create a new rail artery around the city serving 20 London boroughs."

Around £1.4bn will be spent on new trains and refurbishing stations which in many cases have not experienced investment in decades. Around 400 new jobs will be created.

"This contract paves the way for radical revitalisation of London's rail services which have suffered from years of neglect and under investment," the mayor said.

"It will provide passengers with the staffing, safety and security and customer service they deserve."

The North London line, at present run by Silverlink, part of the quoted National Express group, takes in services between Richmond and Stratford; Euston and Watford Junction; Willesden Junction and Clapham Junction; and Gospel Oak to Barking.

The contract, awarded by Transport for London, takes effect in November and also covers services between Crystal Palace and Dalston Junction from 2010 when trains start rolling on the new, extended East London line.

There was fierce competition for the contract involving rival bids from Go Ahead and National Express, but transport experts say MTR and Laing represented a "dream ticket".

Laing, one of the country's leading developers of privately financed infrastructure projects, operates the award winning Chiltern Railways franchise operating services from Marylebone to the Midlands.

The service has an enviable record - around 95 per cent of the trains reach their destination on time. Yet this still falls short of the 99 per cent punctuality record claimed by MTR, which operates about 3,000 services a day carrying 2.4 million passengers in and around Hong Kong. This will be the first time MTR has operated outside China.

The row over the contract is expected to continue, with unions believing the line should have been left in the public sector.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 02:55 PM   #57
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MTRC joint venture wins London bid

BenjaminScentandagencies
Wednesday, June 20, 2007

MTR Corp (0066) has won its first contract outside the Greater China region, announcing a 50-50 joint venture with the UK's Laing Rail has been selected to operate an upgraded overground railway in east and north London for a minimum seven years.
"Winning this franchise is an important first step in the development in the MTR Corporation's European growth strategy," MTRC China and international business director Francis Lung Ka-kui said in a statement Tuesday.

"Going forward, we will continue to look for suitable opportunities to invest in both the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe, using our asset- light approach."

Laing Rail is owned by London- based asset management company Henderson Group.

The partnership has 5 million (HK$77.48 million) invested in "assets," an MTRC spokesperson said, without elaborating. Financial terms of the deal were not disclosed.

The franchise - to be known as London Overground - will be overseen by Transport for London, the municipal government agency that runs the city's buses and underground trains. It will be worth 700 million over the life of the project, which contains an undisclosed management fee for MTRLaing, the joint-venture company.

Such fees typically constitute 3 to 5 percent of the total cost of the project.

Laing Rail currently operates Britain's Chiltern Railways, MTRC said.

The joint venture was picked over three other bidders to run the concession. MTRLaing's operation of the lines will sta
rt November 11, and will run for seven years, with an option for a two-year extension, according to an announcement from London Mayor Ken Livingstone.

MTRLaing's franchise will be the first part of the London transportation network - whose signage is based on the classic "Underground" logo - to use the new moniker "Overground." The system will act as a crucial link for the 2012 Summer Olympic Games," said MTRC, majority owned by the Hong Kong government.

Transport for London is spending 1 billion to upgrade and extend the East London Line and buy new trains. The line is scheduled to be reopened in 2010.

The agency intends to revive the fortunes of the services covered under the new franchise, many of which had been in longterm decline and seen as relatively marginal.

MTRLaing submitted its bid in October 2006 and was shortlisted in December along with a competing bid.

The London Rail Concession currently serves 60 stations over 60 route miles in the Greater London region, and carries about 23 million passengers per year. The routes comprise an inner suburban commuter network serving the western, northern and eastern extremities of the metropolitan area. "We are looking forward to applying our knowledge to improve the experience of London rail passengers and assisting Mayor Livingstone in realizing his vision to deliver noticeable improvements," Lung said.

Some of the service improvements already planned include the introduction of a more comprehensive ticketing system, a phased program of station upgrades, and the introduction of a fleet of new trains starting in 2009.

A 50-50 joint venture between MTRC and Swedish railway company SJ is currently bidding for concessions in Sweden and Denmark.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 05:50 PM   #58
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So this is going to work much like the way the DLR works? I don't see why the unions are complaining, the East London line is the only section that is being transfered, which is a very short line. The rest of it is fully privatised...
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Old June 20th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #59
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Not really!

DLR is a vertically integrated operation, Track and Trains.

MTR/Laing will be a TOC(Train Operating Company) franchised by TfL
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Old June 20th, 2007, 06:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Not really!

DLR is a vertically integrated operation, Track and Trains.

MTR/Laing will be a TOC(Train Operating Company) franchised by TfL
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't the DLR operated by a private company, and franchised by TfL, like London buses, they're all under the TfL umbrella but are ran in different ways.

The Tube is operated by TfL but maintained by private companies, as far as i'm aware.

The London Overground will have it's track maintained by Network Rail will it not?
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