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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:08 PM   #61
Trainman Dave
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I understnd that the DLR franchise is vertically integrated, i.e. the same company built and maintains the tracks as well as operating the Vehicles on the route.

London Overground tracks are maintained by Network Rail and operated by MTR/Laing, i.e it not a vertically integrated franchise.
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Old June 20th, 2007, 08:40 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
I understnd that the DLR franchise is vertically integrated, i.e. the same company built and maintains the tracks as well as operating the Vehicles on the route.

London Overground tracks are maintained by Network Rail and operated by MTR/Laing, i.e it not a vertically integrated franchise.
I didn't know what you meant by "vertically integrated", sorry, but I don't know all this business lingo.

What exactly are the unions complaining about? Are they claiming that this is the first sign of a long line to full privatisation?

I'm still unclear over what they mean by "operating", does that mean they manage the staff, timetables etc? But do TfL still "overlook" everything to make sure they don't step out of line?
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Old June 20th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #63
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TfL is the franchising authority for local transport in London, so it "overlooks" all the franchisees.

However it also operates the London Underground (i.e. the running of the trains) and this is not franchised to a private company (TOC). TfL is a public sector organization. As the East London Line was a part of the London Underground system, it was operated by public employees. TfL is removing the ELL from LU (i.e. publically operated) and transferring it to London Overground which is franchised to the MTR/Laing (a TOC). Thus "privatizing" those jobs which are now public sector jobs. That is what the unions are complaining about! They don't want to loose the benefits of public employment! They are also afraid that TfL may try privatize other sections of the LU

Vertical Integration is phrase to describe the integration of all components of a railway into a single company. BR was "vertically integrated" but privatization tore that all appart into separate organizations responsible for operation the trains (the TOCs), organizations reposponsible for owning the trains (the ROSCOs) and and Network Rail which owns and maintains the tracks.

In contrast one company, built the DLR tracks, maintains them and operates the trains, thus it is vertically integrated. One of the very few transportation operations left in the UK which is.
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Last edited by Trainman Dave; June 21st, 2007 at 05:47 PM.
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Old June 21st, 2007, 12:38 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
TfL is the franchising authority for local transport in London, so it "overlooks" all the franchisees.

However it also operates the London Underground (i.e. the running of the trains) and this is not franchised to a private company (TOC). TfL is a public sector organization. As the East London Line was a part of the London Underground system, it was operated by public employees. TfL is removing the ELL from LU (i.e. publically operated) and transferrring it to London Overground which is franchised to the MTR/Kaing (a TOC). Thus "privatizing" those jobs which are now public sector jobs. That is what the unions are complaing about! They don't to loose the benefits of public employment! THey are also affraid that TfL may try privatize other sections of the LU

Vertical Integration is phrase to describe the integration of all components of a railway into a single company. BR was "vertically integrated" but privatization tore that all appart into separate organizations responsible for operation the trains (the TOCs), organizations reposponsible for owning the trains (the ROSCOs) and and Network Rail which owns and maintains the tracks.

In contrast one company, built the DLR tracks, maintains them and operates the trains, thus it is vertically integrated. One of the very few transportation operations left in the UK which is.
Really useful, thanks a bunch!
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Old October 5th, 2007, 11:51 AM   #65
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London's Crossrail ("RER") Finally Gets the Go Ahead

From the BBC:

Quote:
Crossrail gets the green signal

Construction on Crossrail would start in 2010
The £16bn Crossrail scheme to build a new rail line through the centre of London has been given the go-ahead by Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
Construction for the link - connecting Maidenhead, Berkshire, to Essex through London - will start in 2010.

Train services are expected to be running in a decade.

The government is providing a third of the money with the rest made up from borrowing against future fares and a levy on London business rates.

Mr Brown said the project was of "enormous importance, not just for London but for the whole country" and would generate an additional 30,000 jobs for the city.

Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly said the project had "eluded all previous governments" due to the funding gap and that the scheme would leave a lasting transport legacy.

Crossrail was first proposed in the 1980s, but supporters have had difficulty in securing the funding.

'Giant jigsaw'

Describing the move as a "internationally recognisable vote of confidence" in London's economy, Mayor Ken Livingstone said: "Crossrail is not just a transport scheme, it is the key to the next 20 years of economic development of London."

"Crossrail will provide the transport underpinning for the greatest centres of London's business... as well as linking these areas of high jobs growth to the areas of greatest deprivation in east London and opening up the areas of new housing development in the Thames Gateway."


See map of Crossrail route
Baroness Valentine, chief executive of business group London First, said the project was like a "piecing together a giant jigsaw".

"Crucially for London's future, when Chinese and Indian businesses consider where to site their European HQs, they will see in London a world city investing in its future."

Crossrail will provide 24 trains an hour into the heart of London from the east and west, improving rail links to the West End, the City and the Docklands business district.

As well as adding capacity to London's overcrowded tube network, it will improve links to Heathrow and other airports.

The bulk of the construction will involve digging two 10-mile tunnels deep under central London between Paddington and Stratford stations.

The government says the cost of the scheme is outweighed by the economic benefit - calculated at £20bn.

Earlier this week, the City of London Corporation agreed to help meet a funding gap that was holding back the scheme.

The authority voted to support "a financial contribution" to the project, which had stalled over a shortfall of up to £400m.

After nearly 20 years, it may be that Crossrail joins the other major cross-capital route, Thameslink, in finally achieving financing.




High-speed link
Planned operational date 2015
From Maidenhead and Heathrow in west
From Shenfield and Abbey Wood in east
Through central London tunnels
New stations at Paddington, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Whitechapel and Canary Wharf
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Old October 5th, 2007, 12:00 PM   #66
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The Proposed London 2016 Transport Map

The Purple Line dotted line through the Centre is the new Crossrail Line.


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Old October 5th, 2007, 12:05 PM   #67
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Route in Detail

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Old October 5th, 2007, 12:06 PM   #68
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Great, right now it reall takes time to cross the city with the Circle Line or the other train lines.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 12:58 PM   #69
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If the diggers moved in tomorrow I'd be positive about this, but the 'starting in 2010' thing doesn't reassure me one bit.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 01:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
If the diggers moved in tomorrow I'd be positive about this, but the 'starting in 2010' thing doesn't reassure me one bit.
They've already dug some bore holes

I'd rather it doesn't start for another decade to be honest.

You could do so much more for £16bn/$32bn.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 03:47 PM   #71
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Why is it starting construction so late?

Also, won't it effectively make the Central line obsolete?

And what the hell has happenned to the tube map?!?
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Old October 5th, 2007, 04:15 PM   #72
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I live near slough and finding it hard to see the point of this network stopping at so many places like Iver and Langley.

I could easily get a first great western that takes me staight into london padington in 25 mins and then change for an underground and still prob beat the cross rail into central london.

I'm only just knit picking at this, it is probably going to benifit isolated areas much better.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 04:22 PM   #73
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Er, my guess would be that crossrail's purpose is not to only serve commuters travelling into the city but to offer cross (the city) rail connections. E.g. you live in Slough and travel to Romford.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 06:06 PM   #74
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Then my point would be, why not start crossrail at paddington and perhaps save the rail line from having slower trains stopping more frequently in favour of High speed trains straight from major towns?
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Old October 5th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why is it starting construction so late?

Also, won't it effectively make the Central line obsolete?

And what the hell has happenned to the tube map?!?
Re: the Central Line... Not really

Crossrail won't be competing for any suburban Central line commuters except for perhaps at Ealing Broadway and Stratford, everywhere else to West Ruslip or at the Eastern end of the line will be untouched by Crossrail competition. One great benefit would be to take the strain off the Stratford - Bank section, with hopefully a significant number of Central line customers transferring onto Crossrail at Stratford.

That's the whole point of a scheme like Crossrail: to take the strain off east-west Tube lines... I certainly don't think the Central line would become 'obsolete' by any stretch of the imagination.
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Old October 5th, 2007, 07:20 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Bert View Post
I live near slough and finding it hard to see the point of this network stopping at so many places like Iver and Langley.

I could easily get a first great western that takes me staight into london padington in 25 mins and then change for an underground and still prob beat the cross rail into central london.

I'm only just knit picking at this, it is probably going to benifit isolated areas much better.
There's no reason why Crossrail can't run fast and slow services as the mainlines at each end (GWR ex-Paddington and GER ex-Liverpool Street) are both quadruple and already run fast, semi-fast and slow services.

You could have the Gidea Park all stations service linked up with the Greenford all stations service to create a 'slow' all stations Crossrail running alongside fast services perhaps stopping Reading / Slough / Ealing Broadway and Stratford / Ilford / Romford / Billericay / Shenfield only.
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Old October 6th, 2007, 04:23 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Cool to see so much dotted lines on this map, man!

I lived in London from 1996 to 2000 and this Greater London Authority ant the subsequent investment in transports is one of the things this city needed most.

A really big project, I am kind of impressed to see how it got financially backed. Paris took 20 years to contemplate Orbitale (a round Paris underground) and it is still a preliminary project (called Metropherique nowadays!). I heard different figures : cost of 16bn pounds, and benefits of 30bn quids over 50 years (or am I confused with euros???)

Evil Bert, I don't think any sound town planning policy would recommend fast commuting transports over such long distances, and encourage city workers to live in Slough! Anyway, you only are ten stops away from Paddington so it's not that bad isn't it?

Last edited by Grygry; October 6th, 2007 at 04:37 PM.
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Old October 6th, 2007, 04:37 PM   #78
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That's very expensive. How long would this one be?
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Old October 6th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #79
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That's very expensive. How long would this one be?
16 km of tunnels, 60 km total, and 38 stations.
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Old October 6th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #80
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Quote:
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16 km of tunnels, 60 km total, and 38 stations.
That's a little misleading... I count only 7 actually new stations (as in new platforms):

Paddington
Bond Street
Tottenham Court Road
Farringdon
Liverpool Street
Whitechapel
Isle of Dogs
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