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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:18 PM   #1281
Svartmetall
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It is very much like an RER rather than a metro. It depends on the line what the frequency is though. Check out the tfl website.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:36 PM   #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
How frequent are the trains then? It seems more like RER than a real metro.
Quote:
4 Dalston Junction - West Croydon
4 Highbury & Islington - Crystal Palace
4 Dalston Junction - New Cross
4 Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction
4 Richmond - Stratford
2 Clapham Junction - Stratford
2 Clapham Junction - Willesden Junction (Stratford at peaks)
3 London Euston - Watford Junction
4 Gospel Oak - Barking
Off Wikipedia, services are grouped into the lines they serve. London Overground try's to be a metro but it can't because of the lines it operates on, the North London line is the freight route between the WCML and major ports so trying to run a metro service would be impractical. I don't know what an 'RER' is (all I know is that it's French?) but from what people use it to describe it sounds like the service Crossrail and Thameslink will provide whereby trains interface with national rail and run on network rail metals.

Services are not numbered and announcements will refer to 'London overground service to...' As opposed to the tube style 'this is a ... Line train to ...'
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:56 AM   #1283
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
It is very much like an RER rather than a metro. It depends on the line what the frequency is though. Check out the tfl website.
RER are suburban lines that are connected across the city and the frequency increased to metro.. Euston is as close to London as any service gets!

The Overground is the rebranding of national rail services with a small increase in frequency - most "core" stations only get about 4 tph..

So Crossrail will be the first UK RER-style service - Overground is just a more frequent/uniformly branded version of what was already on offer
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:01 AM   #1284
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Thameslink is technically our first RER style service which will be offering 24tph through the core around the same time Crossrail opens.

If you used the silverlink franchise services (pre-overground) then you'll realise that it's not just a small increase in frequency and a re-brand, stations became staffed again making the network more attractive to users (national express owners of silverlink liked the be lets say frugal (on one of their other franchises at the time, Wessex trains, they didn't do any C6 exams of their fleet hence why when FGW took over they had some issues) hence why many stations were unstaffed and so people didn't feel safe to use them at night) so as people felt safer and frequencies improved more people travelled on the network creating a passenger boom.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:15 AM   #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
RER are suburban lines that are connected across the city and the frequency increased to metro.. Euston is as close to London as any service gets!

The Overground is the rebranding of national rail services with a small increase in frequency - most "core" stations only get about 4 tph..

So Crossrail will be the first UK RER-style service - Overground is just a more frequent/uniformly branded version of what was already on offer
Well, he asked if it was RER-like or a metro. It's definitely not a metro, so saying that it is "RER-like" was easier than saying that it is a "suburban rail system". In reality, the network is very hard to describe. It doesn't connect to central London really, except for at Euston (my old station, yey) but it does operate in the inner regions of London. Not many networks like that around the world.

That said, 15 minute frequency is what the Oslo metro gets off-peak. To say that 4tph on each branch discounts it from recognition as a form of a "rapid transit network" for London is a bit off. It's more than just a rebranding form NR, the administration of the Overground transferred directly to TFL, and that really has changed things in terms of future development. Having a unified scheme and branding (as well as new rolling stock) has altered the perception of the service. Not only that but there have been expansions to the network as well as reopening of mothballed tracks in the south of London. Don't sell it short.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:34 AM   #1286
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TfL have complete say over most of the network however the operations is contracted out just like the DLR model I guess
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:56 AM   #1287
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Core sections of the Overground are still relatively infrequent whereas core sections of the RER are every few minutes.. Outer branches of the RER see similar tph to the most frequent Overground stations. "Regional express network" (c'est réseau express régional en Anglais) does not describe the Overground.

I presumed the OP was meaning distance as apposed to frequency as the RER offers metro-like frequency across many of its stations whilst providing an express line across the city. "Metro or RER" isn't a question when they have a similar tph so forgive me for reading into the question.

Sure, I was going to put an * for thameslink as it crosses the city with high frequency and is regional on either side, however this technically predates the RER and wasn't built specifically to join up the suburban network at high frequency. In this way Crossrail is the UK equivalent.

I'm not putting down the effects of rebranding and increasing frequency but the Overground certainly does not compare with the RER system - express regional network it is not. The Watford-Euston branch in particular is only a local stopping suburban version of the mainline, not a mainline tunnelled through London to provide an express metro service. I'd rather see more lines brought under TFL with service destinations and frequencies increased but the only true RER equivalent will be Crossrail. So I guess neither RER or metro would be a full answer
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:05 AM   #1288
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It's an infrequent metro serving the outer suburbs of London orbitally.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 07:07 AM   #1289
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:09 PM   #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
Core sections of the Overground are still relatively infrequent whereas core sections of the RER are every few minutes.. Outer branches of the RER see similar tph to the most frequent Overground stations. "Regional express network" (c'est réseau express régional en Anglais) does not describe the Overground.

I presumed the OP was meaning distance as apposed to frequency as the RER offers metro-like frequency across many of its stations whilst providing an express line across the city. "Metro or RER" isn't a question when they have a similar tph so forgive me for reading into the question.
Well, RER, S-Bahn etc are all interchangeable terms. There are RER networks outside of Paris y'know. It is just a description of a suburban network that is entirely focused on larger distance stops between stations and a quicker journey time between point A and point B rather than frequency and tight-knit stations, but we're getting bogged in semantics here. Technically, Geneva has an "RER" line, too. S-bahn networks are often used interchangeably with RER as well, despite there being a vast discrepancy between the service patterns and operation of various S-bahn networks across the German speaking world. You have systems like Berlin and Hamburg which are pretty much metros in their relative cities, and then you have Rhein-Main or Rhein-Ruhr S-bahn networks which are far more "regional rail" than metro-style. In Switzerland, all services termed "S-bahn" in German are termed "RER" in French, hinting at the wider use of the term "RER". The Zurich S-bahn suddenly becomes "Réseau express régional zurichois" in French. Don't just think of Paris when people say "RER".
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 12:55 PM   #1291
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"The S-Bahn serves city centre traffic as well as suburbs and nearby towns. A common characteristic is high efficiency and a synchronised timetable that allows for more dense rail traffic on the railway lines. This is achieved by electric locomotives and train doors at platform level and by the complete use of separate tracks. In the city centres the tracks are almost always either underground or elevated."

So low frequency suburban orbital metro. Definitely not RER/S-Bahn
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:05 PM   #1292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
"The S-Bahn serves city centre traffic as well as suburbs and nearby towns. A common characteristic is high efficiency and a synchronised timetable that allows for more dense rail traffic on the railway lines. This is achieved by electric locomotives and train doors at platform level and by the complete use of separate tracks. In the city centres the tracks are almost always either underground or elevated."

So low frequency suburban orbital metro. Definitely not RER/S-Bahn
I can see that I am not going to convince you of this, but those "catch all" definitions do miss the exceptions that are still labelled as S-bahn. As stated, the Rhein-Ruhr S-bahn generally operates at 15 minute - 30 minute frequency between cities in the Ruhr. The Swiss S-bahn's operate at anything between 5 and 60 minute frequencies and have a variety of services. It's just a name (though I have been on a variety of S-bahn systems in both Germany and Switzerland and can tell you a good number of them feel like the Overground in terms of rolling stock and/or frequencies).

Anyway, as I said there is no precedent for the characterisation of what the Overground is as it seems to be in a class of its own without international parallel.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:06 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by ArtNouveau View Post
It's an infrequent metro serving the outer suburbs of London orbitally.
There's so much wrong with that sentence...

working backwards:
  • It is NOT orbital - it is tangential. There is a difference and it is this: tangents are much more useful for passengers!
  • While Walthamstow, Watford, Crystal Palace, Croydon, etc are blatently outer, Wapping, West Brompton, Clapham, Canonbury, etc are very much 'inner'.
    And Camden, Hoxton, Shoreditch and Whitechapel (we'll ignore Euston for the time being) are pretty much central London locations. Shoreditch is in zone 1, and the other three are closer to the action than zone 1 stations like Bayswater or High Street Ken and quirks of history and geography have put them in zone 2.
  • It isn't that infrequent. OK, it isn't as frequent as it needs to be in a lot of places, which is a problem, but a different one. With Goblin at 4tph, everything is at TUAG (sure, Londoners, especially north of the river, typically expect at least 6tph before not bothering with a timetable, due to being spoilt by the tube's high frequencies even in zone 3 and beyond), except the DC lines which are supplemented by the Bakerloo.
    6tph off-peak on the NLL is not to be sniffed at, especially compared to similar links elsewhere in the world, and we don't cry 'not a metro' when we see those frequencies on the DLR Stratford - Canary Wharf, or on a couple of zone-1 SSL links. It took a massive development at Shepherds Bush to get the H&C above 7tph, despite the T-cup plan or similar being seen as a good idea for decades beforehand.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 03:50 PM   #1294
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It's essentially a rebranded and improved suburban rail service, which spares long bus commutes or tube travelling via central London.

I can't really think of another system like that.

Crossrail on the other hand will be the first RER-like line in the UK. (These services were long known with this name in Francophone countries and as S-Bahn in Germanophone countries, so I guess they had to invent a completely new name in London for people to understand)
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 04:14 PM   #1295
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Crossrail on the other hand will be the first RER-like line in the UK.
Nope - London invented the concept in the 1860s and did an awful lot of 'RERing' from then until the 1940s (then, thanks to fighting the Nazis, ran out of money for the epic RER plans they had, removing a lot of the railway on the surface in zone 1).

Just because it was almost all branded with the red roundel, or the logos of the predecessor companies, doesn't stop it being similar to an RER in concept.

Paris had to built new tunnels for the very simple reason that their metro is basically an underground tram in the inner parts. OK, parts of the Underground are like that, and the bored tunnel gauge isn't great, but it has always had, as at least part of its aims, carrying commuters from the outer suburbs into and across London, taking over existing railways that lead to termini.

Glasgow and Liverpool also have cross-city commuter rail lines.

Also Thameslink is incredibly similar to RER C (and also ran from 1868 - 1916, without the longer-distance services), though unlike RER C, the short tunnel was already there.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 05:05 PM   #1296
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Interesting article about bridge replacement from IanVisits:

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http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014...eing-replaced/

Photos – Watch a railway bridge being replaced
APRIL 22, 2014

Over the Easter weekend a delayed plan to replace an old railway bridge swung into action as a road in North Dulwich was sealed off and handed over to an army of hard hat wearing builders and massive machines.

Replacing a bridge is a huge undertaking, and one that needs tons of planning to make sure that the old bridge can be removed, the new one put in place and the railway restored before trains want to use it again.

Easter is a convenient window to do this, although in fact the bridge was supposed to be replaced earlier this year, but the weather put paid to that. High winds and high cranes are not a good mix.

The local councillor was out and about, keeping an eye on things for residents, and as a self-confessed geek, enjoying every minute of the proceedings. As she said, this bridge is rated to last 200 years, so accidents aside, we will never see it being replaced in our lifetimes.

I was told that when a bridge a few roads down the line was replaced last year, the locals backed little railway cakes, but on the move date, we had a drizzle and rain to accompany the bridge.

The old bridge was well, very old and very tired, and the rumble of trains overhead was loudly accompanied by the cooing of pigeons beneath. Three cast iron poles supported the bridge on either side, but the replacement would need neither poles, nor offer accommodation to the pigeons.



The décor is apparently a special shade of heritage green that is appropriate to the railway as it once was when the bridge was first built, and replica crests have been installed on the sides.

Some photos over the past few days

The sealed off road ahead of the bridge removal:


To lift a replacement bridge, you need a big crane:


A very big crane. Best to give way when these come towards you:


Nice wheel turning action to get into the narrow side street:


Looming over the area the following afternoon:


Two lengths of green railway bridge had arrived at 8am all the way from Wales. With a police escort:


The old bridge was now missing, leaving just a maze of scaffolding in its wake. The pigeons were most upset:


It’s a flying railway bridge!


After a moment where the guide ropes got stuck in local branches, under which was sitting my camera lens bag, the bridge was free to fly again:


And swung around to slot neatly into place where the previous railway had sat for around 150 years:


Despite the huge size, it took just four bolts to secure the bridge into place.
With some assistance from a crowbar and hammer:



Bolt in place, several attempts needed. It’s quite something that a crane can both carry upmteen tons of heavy metal, and yet also position it to near millimetre accuracy:


And one bolt in place. Just three more to go, then the second bridge after that:


On the Tuesday, the bridge was firmly in place, with trains running overhead as builders clean up the work site below:


Fresh detailing on the new bridge to mirror the old balustrade. And replica crests on the stonework:


While trains rumble overhead, no pigeons will be roosting here.
Although I have my suspicions about the walkways on either side. Pigeons are stubborn like that:



From above — a nearby vantage point

The railway before the old bridge was removed:


On the day of the removal:


The new bridge in place:


A weekend’s work, and that should now last another couple of hundred years before it needs replacing again
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:34 PM   #1297
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Nothing special, but old one was nicer
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:41 PM   #1298
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Nothing special, but old one was nicer
I just love to see such changes. In my country, I rarely see any reconstruction of rail track, so I fascinated by this. My choice of best ever rail bridge reconstruction - is one that happed in 2011 near Reading. Just look:

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Old April 24th, 2014, 02:52 AM   #1299
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Nope - London invented the concept in the 1860s and did an awful lot of 'RERing' from then until the 1940s (then, thanks to fighting the Nazis, ran out of money for the epic RER plans they had, removing a lot of the railway on the surface in zone 1).
Those lines do penetrate into the suburbs, but they're not really express, as Crossrail will be on the other hand.

I don't think many people will keep using the Central line to get quickly to the other side of town, and that's something that London was really missing.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 02:54 AM   #1300
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Paris had to built new tunnels
How the hell could you do it otherwise?
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