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Old May 29th, 2014, 06:26 PM   #1341
Borough
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Old May 29th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #1342
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The London Connections Map shows the whole London rail network with the Tube, DLR and Tramlink services relegated to thin lines and the suburban rail network, which is far bigger than the Tube in extent and numbers of stations shown in thick lines.
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Old May 29th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #1343
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Pardon me, but that map also shows lines serving Portsmouth, Bath, Nottingham... which I would hardly define as suburbs of London. In fact, does London have entirely suburban railway lines? (not including Thameslink and Crossrail)
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Old May 29th, 2014, 08:01 PM   #1344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Pardon me, but that map also shows lines serving Portsmouth, Bath, Nottingham... which I would hardly define as suburbs of London. In fact, does London have entirely suburban railway lines? (not including Thameslink and Crossrail)
That map shows the commuter services which will include services to Milton Keynes which is on the WCML, just because a line has intercity traffic doesn't mean it isn't a commuter line.
Yes but a main line can have suburban and stopping services, the GWML has Thames Turbo operated services but also HST operated services to Bath and Bristol. Pretty much every main line is classed as mixed because you have stoppers which serve the suburbs and then tend to run with less stops the further away from London you get. Another thing you have to realise is that some of London's suburban lines are the Northern, Piccadilly & Central underground lines because as the underground arrived the suburbs grew around them. And entirely suburban line would be the Hampton Court branch on SWT which operates along a main line and branches off which is how a lot of the railway is formed with traffic funnelling into the terminal. Waterloo is a good example though because while you've got Waterloo you've got the suburban platforms, the SWML platforms, Windsor line platforms which give the distinction.
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Old May 29th, 2014, 08:19 PM   #1345
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Exactly! Suburban commuter services in pretty much every city use tracks shared with intercity passenger trains and/or freight trains. But the map just focuses on services provided within London up to around zone 6. It's not like it actually includes the stops in those far-off places.
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Old May 29th, 2014, 08:24 PM   #1346
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Latest progress on New Cross Gate station upgrade from Flickr user unravelled:

New Cross Station by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Station by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Station by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Station by unravelled, on Flickr


New Cross Station by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Gate by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Gate by unravelled, on Flickr


New Cross Gate by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Gate by unravelled, on Flickr

During the works, constructors presumably removed ticket office to allow building to be refubrished:

New Cross Gate by unravelled, on Flickr

Compare with this photo, taken from Wikipedia:



Plus some works on New Cross Gate depot extension for 5-car trains:

New Cross Gate Depot extension by unravelled, on Flickr

New Cross Gate Depot extension by unravelled, on Flickr
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Old May 29th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester77 View Post
That map shows the commuter services which will include services to Milton Keynes which is on the WCML, just because a line has intercity traffic doesn't mean it isn't a commuter line.
Yes but a main line can have suburban and stopping services, the GWML has Thames Turbo operated services but also HST operated services to Bath and Bristol. Pretty much every main line is classed as mixed because you have stoppers which serve the suburbs and then tend to run with less stops the further away from London you get. Another thing you have to realise is that some of London's suburban lines are the Northern, Piccadilly & Central underground lines because as the underground arrived the suburbs grew around them. And entirely suburban line would be the Hampton Court branch on SWT which operates along a main line and branches off which is how a lot of the railway is formed with traffic funnelling into the terminal. Waterloo is a good example though because while you've got Waterloo you've got the suburban platforms, the SWML platforms, Windsor line platforms which give the distinction.
Excellent answer. It's true that just because a line has intercity traffic this does not mean it's not a commuter line. The duality of the Tube as either a metro or a suburban service, depending on the area, is also true.

But, since I was interested to answer FabriFlorence's question, I wondered myself if London had some kind of dedicated suburban lines. Many cities in the world do it.

Since it doesn't, it would be necessary to consider just the bits of rail lines within metropolitan London.
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Old May 29th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Excellent answer. It's true that just because a line has intercity traffic this does not mean it's not a commuter line. The duality of the Tube as either a metro or a suburban service, depending on the area, is also true.

But, since I was interested to answer FabriFlorence's question, I wondered myself if London had some kind of dedicated suburban lines. Many cities in the world do it.

Since it doesn't, it would be necessary to consider just the bits of rail lines within metropolitan London.
The metropolitan line is a perfect example of this largely being a suburban railway with the only traditional underground bit being from Baker Street to Aldgate, the rest could well be operated by Chiltern Railways even down to the fast and semi fast services the met operates.

Suburban railway in London tends to be the three southern franchises metro areas which tend to be operated by high capacity trains (376s on SE, 455s & 377/6s on Southern and 455s, 458/5s & 450/5s on SWT) to cater for the high commuter loadings.

The East London Line is a dedicated suburban line (from Highbury to Silwood Junction) which operates a high frequency London Overground service.

Yes I think it's best to just count all railway in London as suburban due to the mixed traffic nature of the lines,
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Old May 29th, 2014, 09:26 PM   #1349
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Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
But, since I was interested to answer FabriFlorence's question, I wondered myself if London had some kind of dedicated suburban lines.
Lots - some parts of the Underground, the whole of the Overground, various branches and slow lines on the National Rail Network. You are demanding something that isn't how we do stuff here, trying to force London into the definitions of other cities...

Thameslink (especially when completed), however, fails in this definition of yours as the core section has trains from as far off as Bedford, Brighton and Maidstone (and come 2018, Littlehampton, Horsham, East Grinstead, Cambridge and Peterborough).

And given you are saying that showing lines to Portsmouth is not OK, then Reading and Crossrail is out too - Portsmouth has 'outer suburban' services*, as well as fast ones. Plus Crossrail will track share with other trains and that was out under your definition.

*ones that skip inner suburbs and start stopping in outer ones before going through the commuter belt that only aren't suburbs due to the Green Belt before ending at a convenient location - Reading, Aylesbury, Milton Keynes, Bedford, Peterborough, Cambridge, Stansted Airport, Braintree, Colchester, Southminster, Southend, Shoeburyness, Gillingham, Ashford, Tunbridge Wells, Uckfield, East Grinstead, Three Bridges, Horsham, Portsmouth, Alton, Basingstoke and Reading (it has two routes).

tl;dr - stuff doesn't fit into your little boxes!
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Old May 29th, 2014, 11:47 PM   #1350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
trying to force London into the definitions of other cities...
It's the other way round, technically speaking. The user FabriFlorence asked a question, and it was pointed out that what is on the Tube map is not enough to represent the entirety of London's urban rail network, which is pretty dense especially in South London even if it's not a metro system.

And I also asked whether London already had a dedicated suburban railway service.

(Skyscrapers are skyscrapers, if you want to call them tall buildings to not force London into the definitions of other cities, you're welcome to do it.)
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Old May 30th, 2014, 12:04 AM   #1351
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The tube map represents TfL controlled heavy rail services, the london connections map shows London rail services. Each TOC will have their own map showing services they operate in detail. Of course something like this would be much better for all TOC s to display: http://37.media.tumblr.com/c83e0c01f...c4oo1_1280.jpg
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Old May 30th, 2014, 01:32 AM   #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Pardon me, but that map also shows lines serving Portsmouth, Bath, Nottingham... which I would hardly define as suburbs of London. In fact, does London have entirely suburban railway lines? (not including Thameslink and Crossrail)
It does indeed, and both Thameslink and Crossrail (and others like Heathrow Express/Connect) do as well. And, for some, Portsmouth is a London suburb.

Many of the lines shown are the London end of the 'mainline' network. In and around London these are typically 4 to 8 and more tracks wide. Only 2 or 4 will be the 'mainline' ones. The rest are either dedicated to 'metro' type services (the Tube follows some of the same corridors and even shares the same tracks in places) or to suburban and extra-suburban services that extend to places like Portsmouth or Southampton or Brighton (London-on-sea) or dedicated services, like Heathrow Express.

A big part of the Crossrail build west of central London is the creation of new tracks that run on the exact opposite side of the existing Heathrow Express lines. Between will be the FGW Inter-City and extra-suburban lines to places like Oxford. At what is known as airport junction they are currently building the 'flyover' that will carry some Crossrail trains over GWT and the rest and onto the line into Heathrow (this will replace Heathrow Connect). At the other end it is anticipated this will eventually connect to SWT lines out of London Waterloo. How all that will end up linking is anyone's guess, but express services that run from London Paddington to London Waterloo via Heathrow and Clapham Junction can do nothing but make sense if you know the geography of London.
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Old May 30th, 2014, 10:53 AM   #1353
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At the other end it is anticipated this will eventually connect to SWT lines out of London Waterloo. How all that will end up linking is anyone's guess, but express services that run from London Paddington to London Waterloo via Heathrow and Clapham Junction can do nothing but make sense if you know the geography of London.
The proposed 'Airtrack' service between London Waterloo and Heathrow was shelved a few years ago:

http://londonist.com/2011/04/heathro...o-abandone.php

There was also proposal for 'Airtrack-Lite' but this is also unlikely to happen:

http://trans-trax.blogspot.co.uk/201...ripped-up.html
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Old May 30th, 2014, 12:47 PM   #1354
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The proposed 'Airtrack' service between London Waterloo and Heathrow was shelved a few years ago:

http://londonist.com/2011/04/heathro...o-abandone.php

There was also proposal for 'Airtrack-Lite' but this is also unlikely to happen:

http://trans-trax.blogspot.co.uk/201...ripped-up.html
Crossrail to Staines is as good as it's going to get here. And that is still very much an active plan.

Crossrail 2 killing the Kingston Loop might bring in some sort of Heathrow-Waterloo service - you've got 2tph that goes through the crossings between Barnes and Richmond and they aren't leaving the line at Twickenham, nor are they going to put more strain on the crossings between Staines and Ascot.
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Old May 30th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #1355
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It does indeed, and both Thameslink and Crossrail (and others like Heathrow Express/Connect) do as well. And, for some, Portsmouth is a London suburb.
Well, I was referring to the metropolitan area. Or we should include commuters from Bristol as well.
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Old May 30th, 2014, 02:50 PM   #1356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stravinsky View Post
Excellent answer. It's true that just because a line has intercity traffic this does not mean it's not a commuter line. The duality of the Tube as either a metro or a suburban service, depending on the area, is also true.

But, since I was interested to answer FabriFlorence's question, I wondered myself if London had some kind of dedicated suburban lines. Many cities in the world do it.

Since it doesn't, it would be necessary to consider just the bits of rail lines within metropolitan London.
There are some dedicated suburban lines that share no traffic with other services. One example is the Euston-Watford London Overground line, which is pretty much wholly separate from the mainline tracks is follows (it even has a different electrification system), although it shares tracks with the Bakerloo line. Other exceptions include the Moorgate branch of the Great Northern Railway, and of course the East London Line.

Most longer-distance passenger trains run on separate tracks to the high frequency suburban rail services within the London area, major exceptions being the West Anglia line towards Stansted and Cambridge, and the Chatham line from Victoria to Kent. In large other parts of London's rail network freight theoretically shares tracks with metro services, but rarely do so in practice - examples include the South West metro services, and the Dartford Lines (the line through Greenwich and Woolwich is particularly metro-like in terms of frequency).

But yes, there's no completely segregated system as you find, say, in Berlin.
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Old May 30th, 2014, 10:21 PM   #1357
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Yes I think it's best to just count all railway in London as suburban due to the mixed traffic nature of the lines,
It is not quite correct to speak of mixed traffic. Intercity and metro services are fairly segregated in Gt London despite the fact that they both use the general mainline network. They may share tracks on some stretches but overall there is a division between the two for practical reasons.

Intercity services run just on a dozen of principal railways straight to the termini in central London. Most of these railways have been quadrupled in the first half of the 20th century already which allows the segregation of slow all-stopping metro services and fast non-stopping intercity traffic.
Minor railways and branches on the other hand are almost exclusively used for metro services in Greater London.
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Old May 30th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #1358
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From Global Rail News:

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http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/0...ision-delayed/

Essex Thameside franchise decision delayed
30 MAY, 2014


Photo by National Express

Following hard on the award of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) franchise to Govia Thameslink Railway last week, the Department for Transport has announced a short delay on the next one.

The Essex Thameside franchise, which is basically the old London, Tilbury and Southend route from Fenchurch Street, was expected to have been awarded in May. That decision has now gone back two months to July, with a corresponding delay in the commencement of operations from September to November 2014.

As a result, the existing franchise with C2C has been extended by two months.

The extra time is to further examine the bids from four separate potential operators – Abellio, First, MTR and National Express. A spokesman said that the delay was particular to this franchise agreement and would not impact on any other route currently being evaluated.

Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin stated that the Essex Thameside franchise was an important part of the Government’s economic plan.

“I am determined that the next phase of this franchise will build on that success. By extending this contract, we are making sure that the best decision is made so that we can secure the best possible service for passengers in the future,” he added
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Old May 31st, 2014, 12:54 PM   #1359
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Official from Crossrail:

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http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/arti...d-wood-station

CROSSRAIL SUBMITS PLANS FOR IMPROVEMENTS TO HAROLD WOOD STATION
Friday 30th May 2014





Crossrail has submitted proposals for improvements to Harold Wood station for approval

The proposed improvements, which have been submitted to the London Borough of Havering, include:
  • A replacement footbridge over the tracks with new staircases to platform level
  • Three new lifts to provide step free access to every platform
  • Platform extensions to ensure that the station can accommodate the new, 200m long Crossrail trains
  • New platform lighting
Transport for London will begin operating services between Shenfield and Liverpool Street from May 2015 and residents in Havering will be among the first to benefit from new Crossrail trains when they replace the existing rolling stock in 2017.

The new 200m long trains will be able to carry up to 1,500 people and will be quicker, greener and more reliable than the trains they will replace. At peak time, there will be 12 services an hour to London and 12 services towards Shenfield in Essex.

When the route opens fully in 2019, passengers will be able to travel right through central London without having to change trains. On Crossrail, the journey from Harold Wood to Bond Street will take 40 minutes and passengers travelling to Heathrow will be able to reach their destination in 68 minutes.

Matthew White, Surface Director at Crossrail said: “For residents in Havering, Crossrail will mean new trains, better stations and faster journeys. The new service will provide a direct link with central London making it easier than ever before to get to destinations such as Tottenham Court Road, Bond Street and Heathrow.”
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 12:47 PM   #1360
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From Global Rail News:

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http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/0...ssrail-trains/

Bombardier to build new test facility for Crossrail trains
2 JUN, 2014



Gleeds has been appointed by Bombardier to project manage the construction of a new test and validation workshop in Derby.

The facility will be built at Bombardier’s Derby site, which is celebrating its 175th birthday this year, and will aid in the delivery of the £1 billion Crossrail train order.

In March, Gleeds was awarded a separate contract from Bombardier for the redevelopment of London’s Old Oak Common Depot for which construction is expected to begin in August.

Richard Steer, Gleeds’ chairman, said: “As capital is released for infrastructure improvements there is a greater emphasis on ensuring that the right level of investment is made at the front end, lowering long-term maintenance costs and thereby improving end user experience.

“We have always worked with our clients to drive value and efficiency, which is why we are responding by investing in specialist rail expertise and developing collaborative relationships with prestigious clients like Bombardier.”
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