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Old November 1st, 2014, 01:43 AM   #1461
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Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
I've been to Berlin, Paris, Barcelona and London and I can say that London has by far the most extensive rail transport network. The lines are longer, busier, much more frequent and there are more of them.
That's quite some thing to say...

But I wouldnīt like to compare every case vs London. Still, London is not always better in every case, far from that.

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The average distance of the Central line is comparable to the 'Schnellbahn' in Berlin, maybe even longer.
The Central line is an Underground line, we're not talking Underground here, but commmuter rail.

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Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
Still, Crossrail is needed to relieve the line, headways of 1-2min are not enough.
This I agree. But not only to relieve the Underground, which is badly needed indeed, but first and most to create a faster, cross-city railway, which is non-existant or insufficient in many cases, Thameslink excepted, and which exists in all of the other cities I mentioned. That's quite practical, but London hasn't got that yet (it's on the way, though ).

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London is the probably the most ambitious city in rail transport outside Asia.
I'd rather say it has to be more ambitious nowadays than other cities, but precisely because for many years it just wasn't.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 04:14 AM   #1462
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I'd say that the Circle Line and the Berliner Ringbahn actually are comparable. Sub-surface lines have many features of an S-Bahn that the tube lines specifically lack, they're built as if mainline rail could run on them and they can easily be recombined. If any parts of the Underground get redistributed to Overground or any other Network Rail, then it's sub-surface sections and they're the lines that go sufficiently outside of Inner London. Guess why?

And whether Crossrail is to relieve the Underground or to create a new inner-city link that wasn't there before, it's actually the same. Crossrails make a great marriage of the two worlds of underground rail and commuter rail. Most of the line exists beforehand, only lacking the part in the middle.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 04:40 AM   #1463
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And whether Crossrail is to relieve the Underground or to create a new inner-city link that wasn't there before, it's actually the same. Crossrails make a great marriage of the two worlds of underground rail and commuter rail. Most of the line exists beforehand, only lacking the part in the middle.
But the missing middle links are absolutely crucial.
That's why Crossrail 1 (Paddington to Liverpool St) and Crossrail 2 (Victoria to Euston/King's Cross/St Pancras) will be so important, now some routes take forever.
Now there's only Thameslink, and that clearly isn't enough.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 04:44 AM   #1464
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How does a line have an "average distance" and how does one compare one line to an entire S-Bahn?
Good point, and that is the problem with debates like this. People compare apples to oranges. I mean to say is London underground a metro or a suburban railway system? Reality of course it is both. Whereas say Madrid and Paris undergrounds are true metro, with extensive suburban services too (of course London has non "Underground" suburban services too.

What can be measured however is London is far behind in terms of connecting mainline heavy railway across the city, which in turn leads to congestion in the inner city areas on lines like the Central and the Circle line, which connects most of the mainline suburban terminal stations. Clearly Crossrail is part of the solution here linking Paddington to Liverpool Street and beyond at both ends.

But for comparison other cities such as Paris (with the RER) and Madrid (with the Cercanias from Atocha to Chamartin) have had Crossrail like functionality for a number of years. So in this sense London is many years behind and needs more than Crossrail 1 to catch up. And although a poster said he can easily get around London without Crossrail, that is not the point. Every change of mode causes congestion pinch points.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 11:01 PM   #1465
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Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
I've been to Berlin, Paris, Barcelona and London and I can say that London has by far the most extensive rail transport network. The lines are longer, busier, much more frequent and there are more of them.
And yet, it's nowhere near enough. Overcrowding is a real and severe problem in London. Which it certainly isn't in Berlin or Barcelona.

The extensiveness of Londons rail network can also be quite a misperception. There may be a rail station almost everywhere within walking distance. But service levels can vary from 34 tph to 2 tph.
London's main metro network, the Underground, may be a real gem where it runs. Its network, however, is lopsided as it covers more or less just one half of the metropolitan area. The other half is serviced by mainline services only which can barely described as frequent.

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London is the probably the most ambitious city in rail transport outside Asia.
It can hardly be described as ambitious to build behind an ever growing demand.
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Old November 1st, 2014, 11:29 PM   #1466
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And yet, it's nowhere near enough. Overcrowding is a real and severe problem in London. Which it certainly isn't in Berlin or Barcelona.

The extensiveness of Londons rail network can also be quite a misperception. There may be a rail station almost everywhere within walking distance. But service levels can vary from 34 tph to 2 tph.
London's main metro network, the Underground, may be a real gem where it runs. Its network, however, is lopsided as it covers more or less just one half of the metropolitan area. The other half is serviced by mainline services only which can barely described as frequent.


It can hardly be described as ambitious to build behind an ever growing demand.
Its estimated that the National Rail Network in London will be moving 1.26-1.43 billion people a year.
Source: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...tracks-future/
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Old November 4th, 2014, 12:15 AM   #1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
And yet, it's nowhere near enough. Overcrowding is a real and severe problem in London. Which it certainly isn't in Berlin or Barcelona.

The extensiveness of Londons rail network can also be quite a misperception. There may be a rail station almost everywhere within walking distance. But service levels can vary from 34 tph to 2 tph.
London's main metro network, the Underground, may be a real gem where it runs. Its network, however, is lopsided as it covers more or less just one half of the metropolitan area. The other half is serviced by mainline services only which can barely described as frequent.


It can hardly be described as ambitious to build behind an ever growing demand.
The Underground is indeed excellent (apart from the fact that it takes a relatively long time to reach the platforms from street level), but having a hard time to cope with the demand. The Overground however is still greatly lacking ambition. Not in expansion, but in frequencies. Lots of lines have only 2 or 4 tph. The overcrowding at peak times is even worse than the Underground. I have once been in a situation where I couldn't even scratch my nose, because my arms were stuck between other passengers. It didn't seem to be very rare...
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Old November 4th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #1468
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No Overground line has 2tph - all are 3tph or better.

Suburban National Routes, on the other hand...

Oh, and the Underground in zone 9 (dropping to every 34 minutes in the peaks).
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Old November 4th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #1469
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My bad. Some connections are 2tph, but indeed no section has less than 3tph. I have no experience with the underground outside zone 4, but the fast services to Amersham and Chesham are bit of a weird kind in metro land (see what I did there?:p).
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Old November 5th, 2014, 07:45 PM   #1470
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There are limits to the number of trains they can throw round the overgrround plus you have reserved paths for freight. its been a victim of its own success and hopefully it will allow revenue to, be used to pay for cavity improvements beyond 5 car trains.



I am not 100% sure the current signalling can cope with a higher frequency without modification. I am happy to be proved wrong.



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Old November 6th, 2014, 06:05 AM   #1471
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
No Overground line has 2tph - all are 3tph or better.

Suburban National Routes, on the other hand...

Oh, and the Underground in zone 9 (dropping to every 34 minutes in the peaks).
Is that really true? There are parts of the Underground with intervals greater than 30 minutes?
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Old November 6th, 2014, 09:26 AM   #1472
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Is that really true? There are parts of the Underground with intervals greater than 30 minutes?
Yes. Two stations, Amersham and Chesham.

It's the far extension of the Metropolitan Line and the only part of the Underground that operates a timetable rather than just a train frequency.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 12:20 PM   #1473
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Is that really true? There are parts of the Underground with intervals greater than 30 minutes?
It is way out in the sticks; an outlier of the main system. In central London frequencies are much, much higher on underground lines.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 01:50 PM   #1474
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the only part of the Underground that operates a timetable rather than just a train frequency.
Pretty sure that there are other bits (Richmond branch, Bakerloo north of Queens Park), but they don't reveal the timetable to the public.

All the Met north of Harrow is timetable rather than headway, IIRC.

Plus its funny that a peak-heavy station like Chesham (less so with all-day through trains) has marginally worse service during the peaks. Amersham is a lot busier in the peaks, though off-peak there's always passengers.

Amersham also has a similar frequency of Chiltern services, which overtake Met trains off-peak (when the Met trains aren't running fast).
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Old November 6th, 2014, 02:41 PM   #1475
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London is the only city, among those cited, where it takes more than half an hour to cross the city, because it does not have, yet, a proper RER system. Also, it's the only city that relies so heavily on buses. Check the bus map of Paris for a direct comparison.

Also, some new systems have been slow to attract passengers. The DLR's ridership is a mere 100 million per year and the Overground is at the same, low, level. The influence of the Tramlink is negligible.

However, London has been so far quite slow to catch up, possibly because public investement is always slower than private. The good news is that it seems things are going to change, with Crossrail and the expected extensions.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 03:56 PM   #1476
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First five-car Overground train now in service

The project to lengthen trains on London Overground from four carriages to five has finally become a reality with the first lengthened train now in public service.

Work to extend platforms at Canada Water and Surrey Quays has now been completed.

At Rotherhithe the longer trains will not fit into the platforms so the two rear sets of doors in the back carriage will not open at this station.

At Canada Water even the extended platforms are too short so the rear set of doors will remain shut.

Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said: “With punctual services and an ever growing number of passengers I think it’s fair to say that London Overground has been a fantastic railway success story. Adding an extra carriage to the trains that criss-cross this network will allow more people to take advantage of what is now one of the most reliable and trusted rail services in the UK. As London’s population continues to rise, it is investment in our transport network like this which will help to keep London and its economy on the up.”

TfL’s Managing Director of London Rail, Mike Brown, said: “The ever-increasing popularity of the London Overground network has seen a huge rise in demand. As a result, we are now on course to carry 135m passengers – nearly four times the number we carried when we took over this railway in 2007.

“To enable us to continue and maintain the high levels of safe, reliable and frequent travel that our customers have come to expect, it is vital that we deliver more capacity by lengthening our trains from four to five carriages.

“We have set a standard for highly successful rail services and this is the model we will follow when we take over three-quarters of the rail services out of Liverpool Street station next year.”
http://www.se16.com/2621-first-five-...now-in-service
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Old November 6th, 2014, 04:33 PM   #1477
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London is the only city, among those cited, where it takes more than half an hour to cross the city,
Perhaps because the city is vast? Half an hour to cross the city is average speeds about 40mph.
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because it does not have, yet, a proper RER system.
Even with one (arguably its RER-equivalent network has existed on-and-off for 146 years, just not treated as something special with separate branding), that won't sort it out. Romford - Bond Street is going to be 34 minutes after Crossrail, with Heathrow to Canary Wharf 39 minutes. Neither of those journeys are edge-to-edge, merely near the edge to the far edge of the core.

I'd be amazed if edge-edge gets much below an hour (St Albans - Redhill is currently 1h11, on the shortest axis, and that's with only a few intermediate stops, mostly in the core). Crossrail reckons on Slough - Gidea Park being 69 minutes.
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Also, it's the only city that relies so heavily on buses. Check the bus map of Paris for a direct comparison.
1)Corridors in London are very very heavily trafficked - even buses running along roads paralleled by a tube line are busy (partially as the tube has relatively large gaps between stations in order to serve far out quickly).
2)Paris' metro is very dense in a core and then hopeless once you are a four or five miles from the centre and outside the city proper. A bus map of Paris only covers the inner sections so wouldn't be a direct comparison - there's much more of a network outside the city, though it has about half the ridership of London's buses

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_share Paris has 27% of journeys made by public transport, London has 44%. Car usage is about the same (a bit higher in Paris) - Paris walks and that probably is as the bus network is pretty poor inside the city proper and public transport in general isn't great outside it
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Old November 6th, 2014, 04:39 PM   #1478
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In addition to sotosi's post, I'd rubbish Stravinsky's claim that 'new systems' like the DLR have been "slow to attract passengers". That's an extremely popular network and extensively used. Why else would they have embarked upon the 3-car capacity enhancement project.
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Old November 6th, 2014, 05:00 PM   #1479
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DLR's official statistics claim around 100 million passenger per year, and the Overground is around 130. Tramlink's at 30 million.

Just compare with cities of similar size, or even smaller, such as Berlin, whose tram network is four times the DLR and carries around half a billion annually.

London's network has been long biased towards buses.

Fortunately, things are set to improve (starting with Crossrail 1 & 2).
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Old November 6th, 2014, 05:09 PM   #1480
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Perhaps because the city is vast? Half an hour to cross the city is average speeds about 40mph.Even with one (arguably its RER-equivalent network has existed on-and-off for 146 years, just not treated as something special with separate branding), that won't sort it out. Romford - Bond Street is going to be 34 minutes after Crossrail, with Heathrow to Canary Wharf 39 minutes. Neither of those journeys are edge-to-edge, merely near the edge to the far edge of the core.

I'd be amazed if edge-edge gets much below an hour (St Albans - Redhill is currently 1h11, on the shortest axis, and that's with only a few intermediate stops, mostly in the core). Crossrail reckons on Slough - Gidea Park being 69 minutes.
You're right, I meant to cross the central city.

It's not the branding that makes the difference, it's the average distance between stations.

If Crossrail wasn't needed, they wouldn't be building it.
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