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Old January 20th, 2016, 08:36 AM   #1901
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Old January 21st, 2016, 12:53 PM   #1902
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TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network with London Overground
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...-a3161586.html

They really do need to sort out how to distinguish between overground lines otherwise half the underground map is going to become orange.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 02:44 PM   #1903
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Originally Posted by Stratford View Post
TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network with London Overground
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/trans...-a3161586.html
You'd have thought that the Standard would understand that "Commuter services running from Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Moorgate, Victoria, Waterloo and London Bridge, would all be transferred under the plans" (their third slide in the video) is not the headline/first slide "entire suburban rail network".

The following suburban lines are not going to be Overground come 2021
  • GWML suburban services (OK, TfL will have these under their control with Crossrail)
  • Greenford Branch (probably will be run by Chiltern)
  • Marylebone suburban services (as TfL feel Chiltern is awesome)
  • Thameslink (which will still be run by the TOC)
  • Liverpool Street suburban via Tottenham Hale (awaiting Crossrail 2)
  • Stratford - Angel Road service (awaiting Crossrail 2)
  • GEML suburban services (OK, TfL will have these under their control with Crossrail)
  • Fenchurch Street routes (as TfL feel c2c is awesome)
  • Blackfriars terminators (? they weren't listed, though the peak services via Herne Hill are on the map)
LondonReconnections wrote it all up in October and had this TfL map:

Quote:
They really do need to sort out how to distinguish between overground lines otherwise half the underground map is going to become orange.
Isn't it already half orange?

It's quite obvious and easy to see a way to distinguish them - use the style of line, but different colours. SE blue, SC (save the MK service) green, SW red, Moorgate the awful colour they have on the map and give Liverpool Street some new colour would be a good start, even though that's still big blocks with one colour.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 05:36 PM   #1904
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You missed Tring stoppers!
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Old January 21st, 2016, 06:52 PM   #1905
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You missed Tring stoppers!
Not suburban (currently only 2 stops in Greater London, one of which is Euston), but Crossrail will take them over.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 07:26 PM   #1906
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Where will TfL expansion stop? Will they ultimately takeover all lines in the Southeast except HS1?
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Old January 21st, 2016, 09:17 PM   #1907
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With this big news, they may either have to come up with a new brand, ie TfL Rail, London Overground, or just have a separate map just for Overground and split the routes into different colours and names, ie Gos-King/GosBark Line (that's including extension to Dagenham Docks and Riverside) Stratmond Line, Clapford Line (calling it Stratham may confuse it with Stratmond), Liverford Line, Enpool Line etc.

Okay poor names but you get the idea.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 09:39 PM   #1908
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ie Gos-King/GosBark Line (that's including extension to Dagenham Docks and Riverside)
You mean Goblin* (including extension to Barking Riverside)?

*Gospel Oak to Barking line
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 03:43 AM   #1909
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I think they need to to like other cities that have regional/suburban rail services that double as heavy-capacity main link in central areas: one map for the core (say, areas 1-5), one complete map and one "outer map" that blurs the central area.

Does TfL rail plan on changing outdated third-rail electrification for overhead wires on Overground lines where applicable?
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 10:02 AM   #1910
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I'm guess they'd like to be able to replace the third rail systems but the cost would be amazing and there'd be far too many places there just isn't the clearance available above the trains for OHLE.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 01:59 PM   #1911
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I think with the next expansion, they'll finally resort to giving the different Overground routes proper names (though I get the impression that boring numbers are just as likely). One of the aims set out in the document released yesterday was to untangle the confusion with "lines" and they'd be hypocrites if they allowed the network maps to continue in one big mass of orange.

London Overground is a strong enough and well-known enough name to not need promoting as an individual route now.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:03 PM   #1912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swede View Post
I'm guess they'd like to be able to replace the third rail systems but the cost would be amazing and there'd be far too many places there just isn't the clearance available above the trains for OHLE.
They'd also have the problem of the various bits where there is shared-track with underground - third-rail can be combined with underground fourth-rail (you just electrically bond the centre-rail to the running rails) but OHLE can't be combined, and (unlike normal trains) you couldn't have dual-voltage LU trains because there's nowhere to put the pantograph when they're in those tight tube tunnels.

The places you really want to use OHLE are the faster outer-surburban and long-distance lines outside of London (where the ability to exceed 100mph is more useful), so it's more an NR priority than a TfL one.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:12 PM   #1913
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Not to mention that the Underground is all 4th rail, meaning that Queens Park - Harrow & Wealdstone and Gunnersbury - Richmond are very hard to convert.

3rd rail isn't bad for Metro services - the priority for conversion needs to be the higher speed Intercity Mainlines to Weymouth, Brighton and East Kent where it limits speed or capacity or both. Of course, the business case for conversion only works if the 3rd rail infrastructure needs to be replaced.

London Reconnections has got its article explaining the proposal in detail up.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 06:03 PM   #1914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Not to mention that the Underground is all 4th rail, meaning that Queens Park - Harrow & Wealdstone and Gunnersbury - Richmond are very hard to convert.
But why would you need to convert it? If it was a decided to add OHLE to those sections then it would actually be much easier to leave the 4th rail system in place for the underground, and have the overhead system as well, as it is the return current that is the issue with dual OHLE/3rd rail systems. The 4th rail means that system can be kept separate
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 06:39 PM   #1915
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But why would you need to convert it?
Indeed, but Suburbanist started a conversation where it was assumed to be a good thing to convert 3rd rail routes. It, just about (and even then, only when the 3rd rail infrastructure is being reviewed), makes sense on the SWML fasts where more capacity can be eked out beyond Poole and more speed can be found between Woking and Southampton Airport. Metro routes in London really don't need conversion.
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If it was a decided to add OHLE to those sections then it would actually be much easier to leave the 4th rail system in place for the underground, and have the overhead system as well, as it is the return current that is the issue with dual OHLE/3rd rail systems.
That's very hard electrically to deal with having both systems. This is why they keep overlap sections to a minimum (typically putting them at stations so the changeover can happen over a short distance).

When they extended the OHLE electrification on the WLL south as part of the Shepherd's Bush station construction, they had issues with isolation where the WLL crossed the H&C - how much worse will it be when they share?

One of the key drivers for getting rid of the NLL east of Stratford was so that they could get rid of the long dual-system electrification through Hackney and make it OHLE only.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 07:15 PM   #1916
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No, the problem is the use of the running rails for the return current, and whether or not they are bonded to earth. The 4th rail system avoids that completely, so in theory it is much simpler to have a dual electrified OHLE/4th rail than OHLE/3rd rail. IIRC the issues with Shepherds Bush were to do with immunising the signalling on the H&C
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 08:27 PM   #1917
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Indeed, but Suburbanist started a conversation where it was assumed to be a good thing to convert 3rd rail routes. It, just about (and even then, only when the 3rd rail infrastructure is being reviewed), makes sense on the SWML fasts where more capacity can be eked out beyond Poole and more speed can be found between Woking and Southampton Airport. Metro routes in London really don't need conversion.That's very hard electrically to deal with having both systems. This is why they keep overlap sections to a minimum (typically putting them at stations so the changeover can happen over a short distance).

Quote:
When they extended the OHLE electrification on the WLL south as part of the Shepherd's Bush station construction, they had issues with isolation where the WLL crossed the H&C - how much worse will it be when they share?
What was the situation before then on the WLL?

Quote:
One of the key drivers for getting rid of the NLL east of Stratford was so that they could get rid of the long dual-system electrification through Hackney and make it OHLE only.
Where exactly was this? Why didn't they just drop the 3rd rail anyways since there were AC stretches already IIRC? And what were the other reasons for dropping the NLL east of Stratford? I would think that it would be a useful connector to Crossrail at this point. Have NLL trains stop at Silvertown and a new underground North Woolwich station in addition to the Crossrail stops.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 01:11 AM   #1918
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They're not going to untangle the Overground just as they're not going to untangle the District Line.

I didn't read maths in Britain, but I presume they don't teach pupils that the following is a "Line"

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Old January 23rd, 2016, 11:55 AM   #1919
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Interesting map, but I have a question on that. I can't quite make out the two stops above Watford. I have family in Hemel Hempstead and was wondering what that dark green line is and if it goes up to Hemel, and what difference it will make.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 12:33 PM   #1920
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Interesting map, but I have a question on that. I can't quite make out the two stops above Watford.
Bletchley and Milton Keynes Central
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I have family in Hemel Hempstead and was wondering what that dark green line is and if it goes up to Hemel, and what difference it will make.
It's the 1tph (might become 2tph) Southern service to MK via the WLL.

Hemel is planned to be on Crossrail as part of the HS2/Old Oak Common works.
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