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View Poll Results: Which is the busiest Freeway
401-Toronto 170 57.43%
Santa Monica Freeway-LA 96 32.43%
Southwest Freeway-Houston 14 4.73%
I-85-Atlanta 16 5.41%
Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 1st, 2010, 04:00 PM   #501
kicksilver
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Sao Paulo has a metro population of almost 20 million people, and the city alone has a 7,000,000 vehicle fleet. The whole state has more than 20,000,000 vehicles. Canada is little compared to this...
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Old April 1st, 2010, 04:29 PM   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
350,000 sounds plausible*. 20% trucks is a bit much though, urban roads always have a lower truck share (or a higher car traffic share) even when the truck volumes are very high in absolute numbers.

70,000 trucks (20%) is the passenger car-equivalent of 175,000 cars, thus you need 8 lanes for trucks alone. I know truck traffic is significant in Brazil, but 70,000.... I doubt it.

* internationally seen, 350,000 is still a huge number, but not unheard of.
I understand Chris, perhaps the numbers are apples and oranges.

Take a look at this: http://www.novamarginal.sp.gov.br/no...php?id=453&c=6

It confirms that in fact it has 11 lanes (i thought 10) in both ways, which are 23,5 km long.

"Vehicles: 350.000 per day
Trucks: 70.000 per day
Motorcycles: 45.000 per day"

JP
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Old April 1st, 2010, 04:32 PM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksilver View Post
If it's 1,2 million travels daily, I guess it's 600,000 vehicles going and coming back from work, that's why it was counted twice?
I don't know. What i see is the official information that it has 350K vehicles per day.

I think Olabil's explanation makes sense.

JP
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Old April 1st, 2010, 04:34 PM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by null View Post
It doesn't look like a busy road to me at all.
I don't think it is the busiest road on earth, but i can see it is pretty busy road, although the picture does not show it.

Perhaps this could illustrate: http://fotos.estadao.com.br/chuva-em...pPosicaoFoto=3

Surely is the busiest road in Sao Paulo and perhaps Brazil.

JP

Last edited by J.Paulo; April 1st, 2010 at 04:40 PM.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 08:19 PM   #505
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So, according to the official site of Marginal Tiete, it has an ADDT of 420,000. That would make it the second or third busiest in the world, behind that 401 one in Canada.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 08:53 PM   #506
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No, it has 350,000 vehicles per day consisting of 70,000 trucks and 45,000 motorcycles, the rest are passenger cars, vans, buses, etc.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 01:33 AM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by null View Post
It doesn't look like a busy road to me at all.
Take a look in this video



Marginal Tiete appears between 0:29-0:49
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Old April 14th, 2010, 02:30 AM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by null View Post
It doesn't look like a busy road to me at all.

You say that because you do not know Sao Paulo if you know such a thing would never talk !!!!!, this picture, of course, was taken on a weekend or holiday, when the movement is far less ...... .. thank goodness !!!!!!!!
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Old April 14th, 2010, 04:25 AM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
By AADT standards, this is the busiest road:



Its the 401 in Ontario, Canada. It can top 500,000 vehicles per day in some sections of Toronto during the summer months.
I'm a big fan of freeways, but that's simply a sad picture. When traffic overcome 3+3 or in some cases 4+4 you should think about other options than roads for transportation. Such as commuter trains and subways.

Even Oslo with only 1,4 million inhabitans in the Greater Oslo area has a bigger subway system than Toronto and it's 5,5 million inhabitans in the Greater Toronto area.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 05:04 AM   #510
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while i dont know the technical details of road capacity, etc - the toronto metro region and golden horseshoe of so.ontario top 8million

not to mention that the 401 (pictured above) is the main highway for the main economic region of canada (linking it's 2 largest cities with the united states (more or less)

what im trying to say is that a roadway like this seems to make sense

but but but i agree with you kjello that when comparing european to american transport systems, the public side is largely a joke in canada/states - where the automobile reigns supreme

there is room for improvement
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Old April 14th, 2010, 06:31 AM   #511
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Toronto needs big improvements and expansion to its transit system. Montreal with 2/3 the population of Toronto carries 5% more commuters.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 06:42 AM   #512
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A lot of people who see that image think "Why don't they put a rail line in the centre/at the side?"

While by all means that makes sense, the 401 in Toronto is much more than a simple commuter road. Just about every major highway in the province connects with it in some way, and the lack of the highways in Toronto made the few existing routes huge.
-The 401 joins with the 400, the major gateway to northern Ontario and central/western Canada.
-The 401 connects with Quebec and eastern Canada
-The 401 gets a lot of traffic from the QEW (Queen Elizabeth way) that is not accessing the city. The QEW connects to the U.S. Northeast.
-The 401 connects with the U.S. Midwest
-It is a major recreational route
-It is a major tourist route
-It is a major inter-city and inter-regional route
-It is a major connecting route
-It is a major commuter route
-It is the world's busiest truck route

Combine all these and you get the busiest highway in the world with one of the world's widest spans. Also consider the geography of the Great Lakes Region and the impact that makes on the 401.

While huge investments in public transit would help, it would only affect the local population and won't provide much relief for the 401. But I do agree that Toronto and other cities in Ontario need much more transit funding.

Edit: Oh, and Toronto obviously has the population and density to warrant more rapid transit/subway projects. Just look at this chart:



Toronto has the highest density of any major city in Canada/U.S. and is expected to grow to 9-10 million by 2031 according to Statscan.

Last edited by Haljackey; April 14th, 2010 at 07:18 AM. Reason: added chart
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:46 AM   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
I'm a big fan of freeways, but that's simply a sad picture. When traffic overcome 3+3 or in some cases 4+4 you should think about other options than roads for transportation. Such as commuter trains and subways.
Toronto had a bad freeway planning. If you look at the road structure, the 401 serves almost the entire metropolitan area as the fastest route for trips that do not go into the downtown area. It also serves the airport and a major industrial area that spans 17 kilometers. All through traffic uses the 401. There lacks an east-west route east of downtown, making the Gardiner a not-so-interesting alternate to the 401 for urban traffic.

As the 401 is not a downtown-bound link, public transport would in no way reduce traffic enough to warrant a 8 lane freeway. The capability of public transport to reduce road traffic is grossly overestimated in these kind of urban areas. You only will see a significant reduction in very dense and large areas, like over 15.000 inhabitants per km² such as central Paris, Tokyo, central London, Moscow, etc. And it's not like there is no congestion there.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 14th, 2010 at 11:33 AM.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #514
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The 401 may be the busiest in the world, but it's not a road. The 401 is a freeway or highway, depending on which terminology one uses. Regardless, it's going to be the busiest patch of roadway of any kind, I suppose.
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Last edited by isaidso; April 14th, 2010 at 11:03 AM.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Toronto had a bad freeway planning. If you look at the road structure, the 401 serves almost the entire metropolitan area as the fastest route for trips that do not go into the downtown area. It also serves the airport and a major industrial area that spans 17 kilometers. All through traffic uses the 401. There are lacks an east-west route east of downtown, making the Gardiner a not-so-interesting alternate to the 401 for urban traffic.

As the 401 is not a downtown-bound link, public transport would in no way reduce traffic enough to warrant a 8 lane freeway. The capability of public transport to reduce road traffic is grossly overestimated in these kind of urban areas. You only will see a significant reduction in very dense and large areas, like over 15.000 inhabitants per km² such as central Paris, Tokyo, central London, Moscow, etc. And it's not like there is no congestion there.
+1

If anything, improving public transit might reduce the traffic on the DVP/Gardiner/eastern section of the QEW (especially the DVP).

Not to say that our public transit doesn't need improvement (we are in dire need of more subway routes, and I don't even support building LRT instead of subways, despite the fact that the LRT plans are mostly canceled too now due to lack of funding). While I like driving (as most of us do on this forum), I also take public transit every single day to university (and soon to work), and would be one of the first people to say that I think it needs to be greatly expanded.

As Chris said, the main reason for the size of the 401 is a poor freeway network, not a poor public transit network. There aren't real alternatives to the 401 because there are only 3 east-west freeways: the QEW/Gardiner (too far south), the 401, and the 407 (it is far north AND is the only toll road here, which means that most people don't drive on it; it is also quite expensive compared to toll roads elsewhere).

In addition, we have an incomplete freeway system. Highway 400 abruptly ends southbound, never reaching the Gardiner. Allen Expressway was never completed (though I somewhat agree that completing it above-ground is not necessarily a good idea, but that's a completely different and irrelevant point of discussion).

By the way, in world standards, Toronto traffic is not so bad. Even compared to many other cities with much better public transit, our traffic is not as bad. Like in any major city, during peak rush hour times pretty much all the major freeways (and many major streets) in the city are congested, but just outside of rush hour (by a small margin, in fact), traffic flows "okay" if there aren't other problems (like a major accident).

In fact, yesterday I drove to visit my friend in Mississauga from North York. I left at 4pm and the majority of my trip consisted of the 401, 427, and QEW. Despite a few slowdowns (near interchanges between freeays), I was able to drive between 80 to 120 km/h throughout most of the trip. Of course, I just beat traffic (30 minutes later the 401 would come to a stop), but around 6:30pm the flow again improves (I've driven that route at that time too). The 401 does fill up to capacity at certain times, but the capacity that it provides with its huge size is needed - it keeps traffic flowing through majority of the day.

During my visit to New York City 3 years ago I was driven through the city a lot (I have relatives there), and it seemed that no matter what time of day it was (even quite late in the evening), the freeways were completely filled and congestion was almost constant. This despite their much more expansive subway system.
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Last edited by TheCat; April 14th, 2010 at 11:38 AM.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 06:31 PM   #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post

By the way, in world standards, Toronto traffic is not so bad. Even compared to many other cities with much better public transit, our traffic is not as bad.
Oh yeah, it's bad. Maybe the traffic isn't as bad, but Toronto has a ridiculous commute time.


Commute time: calculated as the average time (in minutes) of a trip to and from work, based on: US: 2008 Canada, Europe, Sydney: 2006.

Cities associated with low commute times are considered to be more attractive places to live.

With the highest average commute time, Toronto ranks last among the 19 metro areas for which data are available. With the exception of New York, the US cities do well on this indicator. London, Montreal and Toronto are the only cities to receive “D” grades.

# cities ranked: 19

The Grade

# - City Name - grade - average commute time in minutes

1. Barcelona A (48.4)
2. Dallas A (53.0)
3. Milan A (53.4)
4. Seattle A (55.5)
5. Boston A (55.8 )
6. Los Angeles A (56.1)
7. San Francisco B (57.4)
8. Chicago B (61.4)
9. Berlin B (63.2)
10. Halifax C (65.0)
11. Sydney C (66.0)
12. Madrid C (66.1)
13. Calgary C (67.0)
14. Vancouver C (67.0)
15. New York C (68.1)
16. Stockholm C (70.0)
17. London D (74.0)
18. Montreal D (76.0)
19. Toronto D (80.0)

Data unavailable for Hong Kong, Oslo, Paris,
Shanghai, and Tokyo.

Source: http://bot.com/Content/NavigationMen...2010_FINAL.pdf

Interesting to see where these cities fit. Looks like cities with more highways tend to rank higher compared to those with more rapid transit systems (subways).

Still, expanding the rapid transit/subway system in Toronto is vital to its long term economical health. But the 401, the busiest highway in the world, is vital as well.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
By AADT standards, this is the busiest road:



Its the 401 in Ontario, Canada. It can top 500,000 vehicles per day in some sections of Toronto during the summer months.
Will be taking this road home in the next 25 mins Pray that it is moving smoothly and no lanes are blocked due to accidents.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #518
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That road is awsome, I wish I could be there someday. I like Toronto and this is another reason to be more impressed by this huge city.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:22 AM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
Commute time: calculated as the average time (in minutes) of a trip to and from work, based on: US: 2008 Canada, Europe, Sydney: 2006.
[/I]
Cities associated with low commute times are considered to be more attractive places to live.

With the highest average commute time, Toronto ranks last among the 19 metro areas for which data are available. With the exception of New York, the US cities do well on this indicator. London, Montreal and Toronto are the only cities to receive “D” grades.

# cities ranked: 19

The Grade

# - City Name - grade - average commute time in minutes

1. Barcelona A (48.4)
2. Dallas A (53.0)
3. Milan A (53.4)
4. Seattle A (55.5)
5. Boston A (55.8 )
6. Los Angeles A (56.1)
7. San Francisco B (57.4)
8. Chicago B (61.4)
9. Berlin B (63.2)
10. Halifax C (65.0)
11. Sydney C (66.0)
12. Madrid C (66.1)
13. Calgary C (67.0)
14. Vancouver C (67.0)
15. New York C (68.1)
16. Stockholm C (70.0)
17. London D (74.0)
18. Montreal D (76.0)
19. Toronto D (80.0)

Data unavailable for Hong Kong, Oslo, Paris,
Shanghai, and Tokyo.

Source: http://bot.com/Content/NavigationMen...2010_FINAL.pdf
I have the data for Paris.
The INSEE calculate the average commute in Paris metro area.
Paris would have a big D rate with an average of 82 minutes.

http://www.datapressepremium.com/rmdiff/alapage331.pdf
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
Oh yeah, it's bad. Maybe the traffic isn't as bad, but Toronto has a ridiculous commute time.
...
I guess you are correct, and now that I think about it, I do remember seeing that article somewhere. Though, I think other variables might be at work here beside pure congestion, such as the average commute distance, which is affected by things like urban sprawl and the location of employment in relation to most residential areas. For example, there are people who live in Mississauga and work in Markham (like a friend of mine). That's a daily commute to work of 60 km one way!

Quote:
Interesting to see where these cities fit. Looks like cities with more highways tend to rank higher compared to those with more rapid transit systems (subways).
...
Well, then it seems we are still in agreement on the main point - the bigger reason for Toronto's congestion problem is not a lacking public transit system (which is of course lacking as I said, but then again, not so bad in North American standards either), but the incomplete freeway system that we have. For example, if you live anywhere in the north-eastern suburbs (e.g. Markham), the only freeway that will take you downtown is the DVP, which is 3x3 curvy freeway with a lower speed limit. No wonder it comes to a standstill daily during rush hour.

I am one of the people who believe that the best way to get downtown is by subway, and despite preferring to drive in many cases, I rarely bother driving downtown. But I really like the idea of having a lot of commuter parking (perhaps as big multi-level structures to avoid having huge parking lots). I actually often park my car at Downsview and take the subway down. I, however, live along a frequent bus route so it's not a necessity for me. But for people who live far in the suburbs it's a good option.
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Last edited by TheCat; April 15th, 2010 at 02:01 AM.
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