daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Which is the busiest Freeway
401-Toronto 170 57.43%
Santa Monica Freeway-LA 96 32.43%
Southwest Freeway-Houston 14 4.73%
I-85-Atlanta 16 5.41%
Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 15th, 2010, 03:21 AM   #521
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,526
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
+1

If anything, improving public transit might reduce the traffic on the DVP/Gardiner/eastern section of the QEW (especially the DVP).

Not to say that our public transit doesn't need improvement (we are in dire need of more subway routes, and I don't even support building LRT instead of subways, despite the fact that the LRT plans are mostly canceled too now due to lack of funding). While I like driving (as most of us do on this forum), I also take public transit every single day to university (and soon to work), and would be one of the first people to say that I think it needs to be greatly expanded.

(...)

During my visit to New York City 3 years ago I was driven through the city a lot (I have relatives there), and it seemed that no matter what time of day it was (even quite late in the evening), the freeways were completely filled and congestion was almost constant. This despite their much more expansive subway system.
If even New York, with its comprehensive subway/metro rail system, has plenty of freeway congestion, it reinforces the argument that, at a metropolitan area level, a traffic/transit plan that sees cars as "enemies" will simply not work to fit our modern contemporary personal transportation needs.

In regard of massive (like this famous one in Toronto discussed here) freeways, I'm not much a fan of them, not because of their size or b.s. about "cutting communities in half" (something railways have been doing for 150 years), but because on most circumstances it would be better to have, for instance, three 2-3-3-2 higways than one 5-5-5-5 covering the same area.

Two of the most unbeaten advantages of road transportation are its capillarity and "reroutability". This last one means that no other mode of transportation can overcome so quickly a temporary bottleneck than road. So these massive freeways that become the only viable link for a great share of regional traffic becomes very exposed (like mains rail lines...). One single truck accident can wreak havoc in the whole metropolitan traffic, whereas a more distributed system of smaller freeways can accommodate better such issues.

For instance, I take the Rhineland in Germany, with multiple not-so-large freeways covering the area from Köln to Dortmund, as a better arrangement in relation to, say, the freeway network surrounding Milano in Italy.

Sometimes it is just impossible to avoid concentrating the freeway traffic in just one big and large artery due to, say, topography, but where avoidable, dispersing traffic is a better risk-management approach.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; April 15th, 2010 at 12:55 PM.
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 15th, 2010, 04:09 AM   #522
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 703
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
I guess you are correct, and now that I think about it, I do remember seeing that article somewhere. Though, I think other variables might be at work here beside pure congestion, such as the average commute distance, which is affected by things like urban sprawl and the location of employment in relation to most residential areas. For example, there are people who live in Mississauga and work in Markham (like a friend of mine). That's a daily commute to work of 60 km one way!



Well, then it seems we are still in agreement on the main point - the bigger reason for Toronto's congestion problem is not a lacking public transit system (which is of course lacking as I said, but then again, not so bad in North American standards either), but the incomplete freeway system that we have. For example, if you live anywhere in the north-eastern suburbs (e.g. Markham), the only freeway that will take you downtown is the DVP, which is 3x3 curvy freeway with a lower speed limit. No wonder it comes to a standstill daily during rush hour.

I am one of the people who believe that the best way to get downtown is by subway, and despite preferring to drive in many cases, I rarely bother driving downtown. But I really like the idea of having a lot of commuter parking (perhaps as big multi-level structures to avoid having huge parking lots). I actually often park my car at Downsview and take the subway down. I, however, live along a frequent bus route so it's not a necessity for me. But for people who live far in the suburbs it's a good option.
I agree. The freeway era is dead, that was so 20th century...
-You won't be seeing any new freeways in Toronto in the short to mid term that's for sure.

Now that we're a decade into the 21st centry, its time to focus on rapid transit and high speed rail infrastructure. Metropolis's are growing all around the world and megalopolis's are growing even faster. The only way to effectively relieve congestion is through smart, green investments. Light rail must also be implemented for some of the smaller municipalities as well (such as Kitchener, London and Hamilton around Toronto).
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #523
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 703
Likes (Received): 107

Toronto does not have an extensive highway network nor does it have an extensive rapid transit network. That's a leading reason why it placed dead last.

I've been to Barcelona and I agree with its #1 rank. Barcelona has excellent transport infrastructure whereas Toronto is severely lagging in transport infrastructure.

Possible solutions for Toronto:
-Get the Gardiner underground and add another lane or HOV lane in each direction
-Add HOV lanes along the Don Valley Parkway (DVP) or convert one lane in each direction to HOV lanes.
-Add more lanes to the 401 where it needs it. Fix up bottlenecks at interchanges with the 427 and 404 to relieve congestion and increase overall traffic flow
-Extensive additions to the subway network and rapid transit
-LRT and rapid transit extensions in the GTA including a line to Pearson Airport
-Introduce a congestion tax similar to London (extreme)
-Build a high speed rail line or two to reduce long distance car commuting
-Expand GO Transit extensively
-Build Highway 448 in the existing power corridor to relieve congestion on part of the DVP and 401.
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #524
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,576
Likes (Received): 19366

About half of the Toronto metropolitan area relies on just a single freeway to downtown (The Don Valley Parkway). This is also why the 401 is so busy, it is also used by north-south traffic which uses it to get to better north-south routes towards central Toronto.

A congestion tax doesn't solve anything, it'll temporarily lower traffic volumes because of the "shock effect" but in a few years everything is back to normal.

High speed rail is a stupid solution to traffic congestion, high speed rail caters long-distance traffic. Few people commute over an hour each way (maybe 60 - 80 at best). I could see why a high speed rail from Detroit to Quebec City would make sense, but it is no solution to traffic congestion in Toronto.

If we were back in the 1950's, a northern/western depressed bypass of downtown Toronto, together with at least 3 additional radiating freeways would be the best solution to the current traffic problems.

illustration:
[IMG]http://i44.************/16h3xg.jpg[/IMG]
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2010, 05:05 AM   #525
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
-Add HOV lanes along the Don Valley Parkway (DVP) or convert one lane in each direction to HOV lanes.
Never understood people's obsession with HOV lanes. Last time I drove on the DVP (while it was hardly moving), I saw almost no one drive on the HOV lane. It was just an empty lane 90% of the time. Sure, it's good to encourage carpooling, but in practice people just don't do it.

Either way though, converting one lane of the DVP in each direction to HOV lanes (without adding a lane)? That's gonna lead to a congestion catastrophe

I also don't understand why the bus lanes along Dufferin/Allen Rd. are now to buses exclusively and are not available to regular cars with high occupancy and to everyone outside of rush hour (a recent change introduced with the BRT), but then again, it makes no difference because outside of rush hour there is no need for those lanes at all.

Otherwise, though, I agree with your points, although I don't believe we will ever see a major expansion of our transit network (especially if done right, using subways). At least, I don't believe that'll happen in my lifetime.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #526
Sacré Coeur
Registered User
 
Sacré Coeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 2,151
Likes (Received): 534

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I have the data for Paris.
The INSEE calculate the average commute in Paris metro area.
Paris would have a big D rate with an average of 82 minutes.

http://www.datapressepremium.com/rmdiff/alapage331.pdf
The figures provided by INSEE are not comparable with those extracted from the study "Toronto as a global city". The first one calculates the time a person spent to travel (either for going to work or something else) whereas the second one calculates the average commute time i.e. only the time to travel to and from work.
Sacré Coeur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #527
Grey Towers
Registered User
 
Grey Towers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,024
Likes (Received): 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
As Chris said, the main reason for the size of the 401 is a poor freeway network,
I take issue with calling it a "poor" freeway network. I, for one, would rather live in a city with a couple or three huge freeways than one, like most American cities, that is ringed and criss-crossed by many different freeways.
Freeways create dead zones, and I'd rather those be limited to a few areas of the city than more evenly spread out.
Grey Towers no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #528
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,526
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Towers View Post
I take issue with calling it a "poor" freeway network. I, for one, would rather live in a city with a couple or three huge freeways than one, like most American cities, that is ringed and criss-crossed by many different freeways.
Freeways create dead zones, and I'd rather those be limited to a few areas of the city than more evenly spread out.
Completely disagree... A lot of structures "criss-cross" cities, beginning with overground rail tracks and those huge rail yards. They are not less disruptive than any freeway junction.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 05:21 AM   #529
I-275westcoastfl
Registered User
 
I-275westcoastfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 6,146
Likes (Received): 790

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Towers View Post
I take issue with calling it a "poor" freeway network. I, for one, would rather live in a city with a couple or three huge freeways than one, like most American cities, that is ringed and criss-crossed by many different freeways.
Freeways create dead zones, and I'd rather those be limited to a few areas of the city than more evenly spread out.
You are so wrong, I live in a metro that lacks freeways and let me tell you its a major pain. Cities that are like this spend a ton of money upgrading the freeways they have and trying to make little improvements here and there. Getting around becomes a hassle since most traffic either crams the highways or the artery roads become clogged with traffic. Cities with adequate highways are much better off as commute times are usually lower and the quality of life is better.
I-275westcoastfl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 06:12 AM   #530
Haljackey
Registered User
 
Haljackey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 703
Likes (Received): 107

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Towers View Post
I take issue with calling it a "poor" freeway network. I, for one, would rather live in a city with a couple or three huge freeways than one, like most American cities, that is ringed and criss-crossed by many different freeways.
Freeways create dead zones, and I'd rather those be limited to a few areas of the city than more evenly spread out.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with your comment as well.

The main reason why the 401 is the busiest highway on earth is because it has to take the burden equal to the amount of traffic 3-4 highways receive simply because they aren't there. That's why its such a monster.

If the highway network wasn't crammed into one corridor, there would be less congestion because it is more spread out and better connected.

Its planning that matters most here. You can avoid "dead zones" by creating a large right of way and various other ways. Having a "criss-cross" makes sense depending on the size, population, density, and geography of the city at hand.

Toronto is a lakefront city, so it can't be crissed-crossed as much as a landlocked city. Thus, compromises need to be met to help plan and strengthen the network.

Of course, investments in public transport will also help curb commute times, but its good planning that will do the most.

Just look at Barcelona, #1 on the list. Good planning. Good freeway network. Good public transit. Low commute times.
Haljackey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 06:33 AM   #531
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3706

NYC metro expressways are so congested because they are over capacity and built before interstate standards. Also, millions of people live in car centric Long Island.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 07:38 AM   #532
Grey Towers
Registered User
 
Grey Towers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,024
Likes (Received): 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-275westcoastfl View Post
You are so wrong, I live in a metro that lacks freeways and let me tell you its a major pain. Cities that are like this spend a ton of money upgrading the freeways they have and trying to make little improvements here and there. Getting around becomes a hassle since most traffic either crams the highways or the artery roads become clogged with traffic. Cities with adequate highways are much better off as commute times are usually lower and the quality of life is better.
Well, Toronto usually ranks near the top of "quality of life" surveys, so it can't be that.
I agree that congestion is a problem, but a greater concentration of freeways is not the answer. Better transit is. We have a laughable subway system, unlike the multi-tentacled ones that so many other world cities have (New York, London, Moscow, Paris, Tokyo, et al). Unfortunately, our politicians can't seem to get the simplest transit projects done, let alone with some sense of purpose and haste. A commuter link to the airport, for which tracks already largely exist, has been talked about ad nauseam for decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey
The main reason why the 401 is the busiest highway on earth is because it has to take the burden equal to the amount of traffic 3-4 highways receive simply because they aren't there. That's why its such a monster.
Don't forget about the >$1 billion in trade that flows along the 401 every day. It's not only the busiest stretch of road in the world, but probably also the most economically important.
Quote:
If the highway network wasn't crammed into one corridor, there would be less congestion because it is more spread out and better connected.
No argument there, but then Toronto, this city of so many disparate highly appealing residential neighbourhoods, would be completely different. It would be partitioned by freeways.
Grey Towers no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 08:53 AM   #533
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17033

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
Toronto does not have an extensive highway network nor does it have an extensive rapid transit network. That's a leading reason why it placed dead last.

I've been to Barcelona and I agree with its #1 rank. Barcelona has excellent transport infrastructure whereas Toronto is severely lagging in transport infrastructure.

Possible solutions for Toronto:
-Get the Gardiner underground and add another lane or HOV lane in each direction
-Add HOV lanes along the Don Valley Parkway (DVP) or convert one lane in each direction to HOV lanes.
-Add more lanes to the 401 where it needs it. Fix up bottlenecks at interchanges with the 427 and 404 to relieve congestion and increase overall traffic flow
-Extensive additions to the subway network and rapid transit
-LRT and rapid transit extensions in the GTA including a line to Pearson Airport
-Introduce a congestion tax similar to London (extreme)
-Build a high speed rail line or two to reduce long distance car commuting
-Expand GO Transit extensively
-Build Highway 448 in the existing power corridor to relieve congestion on part of the DVP and 401.
Even the new planned Transit system is in Trouble. Honestly i don't think Toronto can survive another 10 years without a great Transit System. It will slowly collapse in on itself , first Companies will start leaving then droves of people.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
About half of the Toronto metropolitan area relies on just a single freeway to downtown (The Don Valley Parkway). This is also why the 401 is so busy, it is also used by north-south traffic which uses it to get to better north-south routes towards central Toronto.

A congestion tax doesn't solve anything, it'll temporarily lower traffic volumes because of the "shock effect" but in a few years everything is back to normal.

High speed rail is a stupid solution to traffic congestion, high speed rail caters long-distance traffic. Few people commute over an hour each way (maybe 60 - 80 at best). I could see why a high speed rail from Detroit to Quebec City would make sense, but it is no solution to traffic congestion in Toronto.

If we were back in the 1950's, a northern/western depressed bypass of downtown Toronto, together with at least 3 additional radiating freeways would be the best solution to the current traffic problems.

illustration:
[IMG]http://i44.************/16h3xg.jpg[/IMG]
More Freeways aren't the answer , unless you place them underground. Toronto Needs more Transit , There Rush Hours are hell , worse the NYC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
Never understood people's obsession with HOV lanes. Last time I drove on the DVP (while it was hardly moving), I saw almost no one drive on the HOV lane. It was just an empty lane 90% of the time. Sure, it's good to encourage carpooling, but in practice people just don't do it.

Either way though, converting one lane of the DVP in each direction to HOV lanes (without adding a lane)? That's gonna lead to a congestion catastrophe

I also don't understand why the bus lanes along Dufferin/Allen Rd. are now to buses exclusively and are not available to regular cars with high occupancy and to everyone outside of rush hour (a recent change introduced with the BRT), but then again, it makes no difference because outside of rush hour there is no need for those lanes at all.

Otherwise, though, I agree with your points, although I don't believe we will ever see a major expansion of our transit network (especially if done right, using subways). At least, I don't believe that'll happen in my lifetime.
They removed are HOV lanes here in NJ during the late 90s , its a pity because we can really use them. With the New Republican Governor forcing NJT to raise fares by 25%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Completely disagree... A lot of structures "criss-cross" cities, beginning with overground rail tracks and those huge rail yards. They are not less disruptive than any freeway junction.
Depends , some of the Rail yards in the Northeast are bigger then Interchanges , but there less dirty and don't cause a whole lot of fumes or noise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I-275westcoastfl View Post
You are so wrong, I live in a metro that lacks freeways and let me tell you its a major pain. Cities that are like this spend a ton of money upgrading the freeways they have and trying to make little improvements here and there. Getting around becomes a hassle since most traffic either crams the highways or the artery roads become clogged with traffic. Cities with adequate highways are much better off as commute times are usually lower and the quality of life is better.
You don't have any Transit , and it seems you won't for a while, sadly. Although you do have HOV lanes on the Freeways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
NYC metro expressways are so congested because they are over capacity and built before interstate standards. Also, millions of people live in car centric Long Island.
Car Centic? Well idk about that , you'd be suprised. Alot of Long Islanders want more Transit options , the LIRR plans on restoring or Expanding the system by 300 miles over the next 10 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Towers View Post
Well, Toronto usually ranks near the top of "quality of life" surveys, so it can't be that.
I agree that congestion is a problem, but a greater concentration of freeways is not the answer. Better transit is. We have a laughable subway system, unlike the multi-tentacled ones that so many other world cities have (New York, London, Moscow, Paris, Tokyo, et al). Unfortunately, our politicians can't seem to get the simplest transit projects done, let alone with some sense of purpose and haste. A commuter link to the airport, for which tracks already largely exist, has been talked about ad nauseam for decades.

Don't forget about the >$1 billion in trade that flows along the 401 every day. It's not only the busiest stretch of road in the world, but probably also the most economically important.

No argument there, but then Toronto, this city of so many disparate highly appealing residential neighbourhoods, would be completely different. It would be partitioned by freeways.
I rode your subways , very bad. Even compared to NYC , old cars ,stations were confusing. As for High Speed Rail in Canada, Ontario needs to work better with Amtrak , CSX and private investors to hook up the planned Empire HSL with the Niagara Peninsula / GTA. Also Canada needs to push for more Freight lines. The Canadian Freight system is laughable compared to the US & European networks. You will see by the end of this decade on how great our Northeastern Passenger / Freight network will be , along with Balanced Transit systems across the region, except in a few areas.

~Corey
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 09:24 AM   #534
Xusein
 
Xusein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 26,172
Likes (Received): 10381

Toronto should strengthen it's commuter rail system, it has plenty of spare railroads that go through possible corridors. Problem is though, the railroads are owned and used by the freight companies which keep it's potential usage stunted.

Compared to the commuter rail systems of the Tri-State (NY, NJ, CT), Boston, and Chicago, GO Transit is very small in scope and coverage.

Driving on the 401, 427, or Gardiner is usually a mess. Every time that I visit that city, I end up in massive traffic in whatever time you could think of, except nights. Even on Sundays, it's not unusual to be in traffic on the Don Valley Parkway. And it takes forever to get from Northeast Scarborough (Malvern) to downtown regardless of the way you go, transit or by car.

It's worse than New York for sure, a city that has almost 4 times as much people!
Xusein no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #535
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Even the new planned Transit system is in Trouble. Honestly i don't think Toronto can survive another 10 years without a great Transit System. It will slowly collapse in on itself , first Companies will start leaving then droves of people.
As far as I know most of that new planned system is canceled, not simply in trouble .

Quote:
More Freeways aren't the answer , unless you place them underground. Toronto Needs more Transit , There Rush Hours are hell , worse the NYC.
More transit is definitely badly needed. However, I do not believe it will reduce traffic jams. Two problems that are related but do not affect each other directly. That is, of course, unless you integrate the two systems well instead of demonizing the drivers completely. For example, as I previously said, I rarely drive downtown because I believe the subway is much better. However, I think parking at the subway station works well for me, and I don't even mind the (cheap) $4 parking rate that was introduced last year.

Quote:
They removed are HOV lanes here in NJ during the late 90s , its a pity because we can really use them. With the New Republican Governor forcing NJT to raise fares by 25%.
Well, we have HOV and bus lanes in different locations. Some of those are a good idea and work (especially some bus lanes), some, at least from what I personally saw, are not used (many of the freeway HOV lanes). I'd rather these lanes be opened to general traffic than simply remain empty.

Quote:
Depends , some of the Rail yards in the Northeast are bigger then Interchanges , but there less dirty and don't cause a whole lot of fumes or noise.
Not sure about that. Many people in Toronto talk about the Gardiner being a major divider between downtown and the harbourfront, but the railway tracks that run parallel to it are much (and I mean, MUCH) wider, much more difficult to cross, and IMHO are a much bigger barrier.

Quote:
You don't have any Transit , and it seems you won't for a while, sadly. Although you do have HOV lanes on the Freeways.
Here I pretty much agree with you, though, I wouldn't say we don't have any transit. We still have very big ridership compared to many other NA cities. Our subway/RT (again, I emphasize the subway) is way too small, but in general Toronto is quite convenient to get by with PT as long as you don't go deep into the suburbs.

Quote:
I rode your subways , very bad. Even compared to NYC , old cars ,stations were confusing.
Strongly disagree. I rode the subway in NYC, and found it much more confusing and more dirty (stations with crumbling ceilings and water pouring from them down onto the platform). I also had a "safety" incident there (sort of a minor mugging, though not exactly), but I'm not going to talk about it The trains on some lines are a bit newer than ours (though our T1 trains are fairly new, and the Toronto Rocket trains that will be arriving soon are newer than NYC's), but in general we have the same trains, made by the same company.

Size-wise of course there is simply no comparison, but in the other qualitative aspects I don't quite agree.

Quote:
As for High Speed Rail in Canada, Ontario needs to work better with Amtrak , CSX and private investors to hook up the planned Empire HSL with the Niagara Peninsula / GTA. Also Canada needs to push for more Freight lines. The Canadian Freight system is laughable compared to the US & European networks. You will see by the end of this decade on how great our Northeastern Passenger / Freight network will be , along with Balanced Transit systems across the region, except in a few areas.
Can't comment much here because I don't know much about this area. High speed rail is nice but has little to do with Toronto's traffic problems. AFAIK most freight does pass in Canada via rail (our system is much smaller than the US, but don't forget that we have a much smaller population and are more spread out), but you may be right overall, I know little about freight transport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
Driving on the 401, 427, or Gardiner is usually a mess. Every time that I visit that city, I end up in massive traffic in whatever time you could think of, except nights. Even on Sundays, it's not unusual to be in traffic on the Don Valley Parkway. And it takes forever to get from Northeast Scarborough (Malvern) to downtown regardless of the way you go, transit or by car.

It's worse than New York for sure, a city that has almost 4 times as much people!
Again, I simply do not know where these figures are coming from. Today, again, I visited my friend in Mississauga. I decided to wait out the 5pm period because it is, indeed, congested. I left around 6:30pm and drove on the 401, 427, and QEW, and maintained an average speed of 100 km/h. Mind you, it was unusually congested eastbound (I guess that direction is always worse, though I think there was a problem today), but I had absolutely no problems westbound.

Again, I'm not denying that congestion exists because I've driven through the worst of it, but outside of the peak rush hour times, it's not that bad. In fact, some routes are much worse (for example, turning left onto Eglinton Str. from Allen Expressway is always horrible at most times of day), but I would never say that driving on the 401/427 is horrible at all times of day if there are no other problems such as accidents or lane closures.

You are correct somewhat about the Don Valley Parkway though - that freeway has no capacity and no alternatives, and is always jammed, although I've driven it without problems outside of rush hour many times as well.

---

Either way, though, the reality is that indeed no more freeways will (or even can be added). Underground is nice but realistically will never happen in our lifetimes. A good transit network is badly needed, and some stuff might happen, but it's unrealistic to expect it to grow to such huge proportions that it will reach all suburbs and therefore cars will become secondary. Just have to look at things realistically instead of idealistically. This is my opinion.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum

Last edited by TheCat; April 17th, 2010 at 10:59 AM.
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #536
carewser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 112
Likes (Received): 15

I can't imagine why this debate went on as long as it did.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Haljackey View Post
These two pictures tell it all. The road in Sao Paulo doesn't even come close to the 401 in Toronto.

The thing that blows me away is that there are no freeways in Shanghai, Los Angeles, Tokyo or New York that are bigger than the 401 in Toronto.
__________________
overly regulated, overly legislated and overly taxed.

Last edited by carewser; April 17th, 2010 at 12:28 PM.
carewser no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #537
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,526
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
Toronto should strengthen it's commuter rail system, it has plenty of spare railroads that go through possible corridors. Problem is though, the railroads are owned and used by the freight companies which keep it's potential usage stunted.
Given the scope of American and Canadian freight origin-destination demands, the relatively lack of viable inland waterways, the huge distances from coast of major production centers, I wouldn't prey on freight railroads to divert their well-managed cargo operations to divert capacity to rail traffic.

I doubt people would like to see coal trucks (and the sheer electricity price increase...) or soybean trucks or corn trucks or lumber trucks clogging highways if freight cargo were to be diverted to highway.

Moreover, given the fiscal constraints in both countries (to a lesser degree in Canada), I doubt very much that loss-generating passenger rail operations would stand a big expansion chance in current political environment.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #538
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17033

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Given the scope of American and Canadian freight origin-destination demands, the relatively lack of viable inland waterways, the huge distances from coast of major production centers, I wouldn't prey on freight railroads to divert their well-managed cargo operations to divert capacity to rail traffic.

I doubt people would like to see coal trucks (and the sheer electricity price increase...) or soybean trucks or corn trucks or lumber trucks clogging highways if freight cargo were to be diverted to highway.

Moreover, given the fiscal constraints in both countries (to a lesser degree in Canada), I doubt very much that loss-generating passenger rail operations would stand a big expansion chance in current political environment.
Ummmm, what are you talking about? Freight shares with Passenger trains everyday , Metro Chicago and the East Coast are a great example of that. More Tracks can easily be added to meet demands. Some Freight companies run lines for Metra. We are currently expanding and upgrading are entire rail system atm , most states and a few provinces. The Northeast & Midwest are doing it at a very fast pace and Quebec is doing it at a decent pace aswell. + Quebec is really make attempts to strength Passenger connections between them and New England via restoring and upgrading lines. So the fact that Go Transit can't expand there network do Freight traffic is BS , its more on the lines that Ontario is a very Car centric society
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 03:05 PM   #539
caserass
Normandie
 
caserass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 8,499
Likes (Received): 5140

Quote:
Originally Posted by carewser View Post
The thing that blows me away is that there are no freeways in Shanghai, Los Angeles, Tokyo or New York that are bigger than the 401 in Toronto.
I don't know about tokyo or NY but Paris has a freeway network of about 800 kilometers. I guess that's the difference between these cities and toronto.

Paris


London


New York


Tokyo


Toronto
caserass no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #540
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,746

Big means wide in carewser post.
He is right, in Shanghai, LA, New York, Tokyo or London, Paris... there are no highway wider than the 401 in Toronto.

In Central Tokyo, the average 2x2 lanes by exemple.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium