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Old February 28th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #201
gincan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
A 10 minutes frequency on a metro line is considered unacceptable in Madrid and Barcelona, even off-peak.
L6 and L7 both which call every station have a frecuenzy of 6 minutes, this is exactly the same frequency you find on all Madrid metro lines outside of morning rush hours.
http://www.metromadrid.es/es/viaja_e...rioLinea1.html

in fact , Madrid metro frequency is 8-10 minutes on weekends and evenings, I guess not so unacceptable then huh.



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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Oh, yes, yes... but thatīs a wrong idea, you see.
That would mean spending millions in a tunnel that soon would be underused.
Why? Because itīs two kinds of services that youīre managing, thus there are two different kinds of needs.
Underused? 40 trains per hour is not underused.



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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Users of the urban lines want a full metro service, not a "looks-like-metro-but doesnīt-call-at-each-station" thing.
So you mean that 6 minutes frequency on L6 and L7 is not metro

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Users of the commuter services donīt want to travel for that long, calling at nearly all inner Barcelona stations, because in many cases, the car is still an option. It takes the same from Terrassa to Barcelona (Pl.Catalunya) if you travel by FGC or if you travel by Renfe, although Renfe uses a much loonger route (with higher frequencies at peak hours and longer trains than FGC, btw).
So use Renfe then, what is the big deal? If you want to go from Terrassa to San Cugat, I bet you would not use Renfe, would you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Trains are short for Barcelona metro standards
Barcelona metro line 1,2,3,4,5,9 and 10 have 90 meter long trains with capacity for around 900-950 passengers. L6 have 80 meter long trains with capacity for 700 passengers and next model (2014) 800 passengers. On L7 there is simply not enough demand to justify expensive rebuilding of stations to fit longer trains so 60 meter trains will do, but so do both line 2 and 4 in Madrid metro and they are real metro lines I suppose


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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
And... you might be talking about FGC Vallčs alone, but ignoring FGC Llobregat is a big mistake, because it has exactly the same problems.
FGC Llobregat is a narrow gauge railway that share infrastructure with freight trains, it is not even remotely comparable to FGC Vallčs.
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Old March 2nd, 2013, 07:05 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Barcelona metro line 1,2,3,4,5,9 and 10 have 90 meter long trains with capacity for around 900-950 passengers. L6 have 80 meter long trains with capacity for 700 passengers and next model (2014) 800 passengers. On L7 there is simply not enough demand to justify expensive rebuilding of stations to fit longer trains so 60 meter trains will do, but so do both line 2 and 4 in Madrid metro and they are real metro lines I suppose
I believe you are citing figures that must be for 'crush' loads. Or approved weight that a car can carry, and then figuring the average weight of a person. The figures you cited look like people are spooning each other and sitting on top of each other.

Transit agencies will use a lower figure when trying to match 'supply' to 'demand'. This could be a function of seated loads plus a figure to represent standees (which is typically based on an acceptable rate for persons per area). And/or, perhaps based upon dwell time and how many people can be processed at a station in a requisite amount of time.

In the USA, transit agencies typically have a load standard. Basically, a ratio of persons per seats. Again, for matching supply to expected demand. Special Events and unusual circumstances would obviously provide a much different scenario.

An urban rail line in the United States will typically peak at about 1.25 to 1.5 people per linear feet of train. A 270-foot train (~90 meters) would typically carry no more than about 400 passengers. After that, the transit agency would add trains or cars to spread loads out. A 270-foot train is basically a 3-car light-rail train. So, 133 people per car. Approximate.

San Francisco BART has 75-foot cars; however, can run up to 10-car lengths. 750 feet total length (~225/250 meters). They can carry upwards of 1,000 people... assuming people actually are in large numbers at the front and back of a train.

Interesting discussion.
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Old March 2nd, 2013, 08:53 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmfarley View Post
I believe you are citing figures that must be for 'crush' loads. Or approved weight that a car can carry, and then figuring the average weight of a person. The figures you cited look like people are spooning each other and sitting on top of each other.

Transit agencies will use a lower figure when trying to match 'supply' to 'demand'. This could be a function of seated loads plus a figure to represent standees (which is typically based on an acceptable rate for persons per area). And/or, perhaps based upon dwell time and how many people can be processed at a station in a requisite amount of time.

In the USA, transit agencies typically have a load standard. Basically, a ratio of persons per seats. Again, for matching supply to expected demand. Special Events and unusual circumstances would obviously provide a much different scenario.

An urban rail line in the United States will typically peak at about 1.25 to 1.5 people per linear feet of train. A 270-foot train (~90 meters) would typically carry no more than about 400 passengers. After that, the transit agency would add trains or cars to spread loads out. A 270-foot train is basically a 3-car light-rail train. So, 133 people per car. Approximate.

San Francisco BART has 75-foot cars; however, can run up to 10-car lengths. 750 feet total length (~225/250 meters). They can carry upwards of 1,000 people... assuming people actually are in large numbers at the front and back of a train.

Interesting discussion.
I'm not completely sure but I think the maximum capacity is calculated with 6 standing people per sq meter of train floor. Tight yes but not crush loads. Crush loads would be 10-15 people per sq meter, Tokyo metro style with door pushers.

For example, the original rolling stock used on Barcelona metro line 1 had cars with a maximum capacity of 330 people, that works out 5-6 persons per sq meter of train floor (each car had around 60-65 sq meters of floor), however the crush load was 400 people per car. With crush loads a 90 meter train could transport 1600 people.

Last edited by gincan; March 2nd, 2013 at 09:02 AM.
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Old March 2nd, 2013, 09:03 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
L6 and L7 both which call every station have a frecuenzy of 6 minutes, this is exactly the same frequency you find on all Madrid metro lines outside of morning rush hours.
http://www.metromadrid.es/es/viaja_e...rioLinea1.html

in fact , Madrid metro frequency is 8-10 minutes on weekends and evenings, I guess not so unacceptable then huh.
Iīm talking about commuter services to Terrassa (S1) and Sabadell (S2), not about L6 nor L7. And in both cases, the service has a worse frequency and much shorter trains than Renfe.

Quote:
Underused? 40 trains per hour is not underused.
The day they realize about the need to separate commuter rail from metro services, it certainly will be underused.
That day will come when metro L9 and L10 reach Sarriā station from both Zona Universitāria and Lesseps stations.
Serious overcrowding ahead, thatīs sure.

Quote:
So use Renfe then, what is the big deal? If you want to go from Terrassa to San Cugat, I bet you would not use Renfe, would you?
But if you want to go from Terrassa to Barcelona, youīre not always in the position to using Renfe.
It depends on which part of Terrassa you are and to which part of Barcelona you want to go to.
I think that is obvious.

Quote:
Barcelona metro line 1,2,3,4,5,9 and 10 have 90 meter long trains with capacity for around 900-950 passengers. L6 have 80 meter long trains with capacity for 700 passengers and next model (2014) 800 passengers. On L7 there is simply not enough demand to justify expensive rebuilding of stations to fit longer trains so 60 meter trains will do, but so do both line 2 and 4 in Madrid metro and they are real metro lines I suppose
I am, again, talking about commuter S1 and S2 services, and also about future extensions.
Loads of work will have to be done in the future, if they donīt plan the lengthening of platforms, the longer trains for commuter services, and the separate tunnels (one for L6 and L7, and one for commuter services to Terrassa and Sabadell) between Sarriā and Plaįa Catalunya or elsewhere in the city, and between Cornellā-Riera and Plaįa Espanya in the case of L8 and commuter services to Can Ros (S33), Martorell (S8), Olesa (S4), Manresa (R5) and Igualada (R6).

Quote:
FGC Llobregat is a narrow gauge railway that share infrastructure with freight trains, it is not even remotely comparable to FGC Vallčs.
Oh yes, it is, absolutely. L8, anybody? L8 will also have serious overcrowding problems, at Europa-Fira and Ildefons Cerdā stations.

Last edited by 437.001; March 2nd, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 07:04 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Iīm talking about commuter services to Terrassa (S1) and Sabadell (S2), not about L6 nor L7. And in both cases, the service has a worse frequency and much shorter trains than Renfe.



The day they realize about the need to separate commuter rail from metro services, it certainly will be underused.
That day will come when metro L9 and L10 reach Sarriā station from both Zona Universitāria and Lesseps stations.
Serious overcrowding ahead, thatīs sure.



But if you want to go from Terrassa to Barcelona, youīre not always in the position to using Renfe.
It depends on which part of Terrassa you are and to which part of Barcelona you want to go to.
I think that is obvious.



I am, again, talking about commuter S1 and S2 services, and also about future extensions.
Loads of work will have to be done in the future, if they donīt plan the lengthening of platforms, the longer trains for commuter services, and the separate tunnels (one for L6 and L7, and one for commuter services to Terrassa and Sabadell) between Sarriā and Plaįa Catalunya or elsewhere in the city, and between Cornellā-Riera and Plaįa Espanya in the case of L8 and commuter services to Can Ros (S33), Martorell (S8), Olesa (S4), Manresa (R5) and Igualada (R6).



Oh yes, it is, absolutely. L8, anybody? L8 will also have serious overcrowding problems, at Europa-Fira and Ildefons Cerdā stations.
Adding capacity does not necessarily mean that cars would be needed, or should be added. True, it's typically the cheapest method from an operations perspective. Annually, it costs less to run longer trains versus more trains. If train lengths are capped by the length of the available platform, the operator could run more trains.

Typical, the best number of trains that can run in one direction on one track is no better than 30 trains per hour. That is a 2 minute headway. What prevents more trains is typically the provision for safe braking distance and station dwell time. For tunnels, ventilation needs to be taken into consideration too. Terminal trackwork needs to be considered too.

The S1 line merges with the line to Sebadell and they share the same track all the way to Plaza Catalunya. I believe the Terassa and Sebadell lines each run no better than every 10 minutes at peak times. That means every 5 minutes in the shared track section. Or trunk section. Assuming there is enough Traction Power, appropriate ventilation for train separation, and the operator has enough cars, each line could run more trains.
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 04:07 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Iīm talking about commuter services to Terrassa (S1) and Sabadell (S2), not about L6 nor L7. And in both cases, the service has a worse frequency and much shorter trains than Renfe.
Yes you were;

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Urban services should have better frequencies
Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Users of the urban lines want a full metro service, not a "looks-like-metro-but doesnīt-call-at-each-station" thing.
And I countered this argument by showing that frequencies on L6 and L7 are in fact just as good as on any metro line in Madrid. An they are just as much metro lines as Line 2 and line 4 in Madrid metro.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Oh yes, it is, absolutely. L8, anybody? L8 will also have serious overcrowding problems, at Europa-Fira and Ildefons Cerdā stations.
Again, it is a narrow gauge railway, not a metro, there is a clear distinction between metro and railway. Metro run on independent infrastructure whereas railway share infrastructure. L8 has never been a metro, is not a metro and will never be a metro, even with 40 trains per hour L8 would not qualify as a metro.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I am, again, talking about commuter S1 and S2 services
Now you have lost yourself completely here. First you talk about Barcelona metro standards then you talk about commuter trains. These are two different things. FGC Vallčs have never been a commuter train, it has never been advertised as one because it is not, it is an interurban railway adapted over time for metro service, I argue that today after decades of modernization and rebuilding of infrastructure it is now a metro system, you keep talking about commuter trains when in fact this system has nothing to do with commuter trains, it wasn't, isn't and never will be a commuter train system. S1 and S2 are suburban metro services, much like German Stadtbahn services, they are not advertised as commuter trains either because they aren't.

Last edited by gincan; March 3rd, 2013 at 05:42 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2013, 12:46 AM   #207
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Still, you wonīt be using these lines, and I will instead, so whoīs the one to know whatīs what?
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Old March 6th, 2013, 07:54 AM   #208
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I don't understand this discussion. So you're debating whether train lines that are separate from the Barcelona metro system have high enough frequency to be considered metro trains? Or are you debating whether trains that are actually part of the system have such low frequency that they should not quality as true metro?
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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
...
Barcelona metro line 1,2,3,4,5,9 and 10 have 90 meter long trains with capacity for around 900-950 passengers. L6 have 80 meter long trains with capacity for 700 passengers and next model (2014) 800 passengers. On L7 there is simply not enough demand to justify expensive rebuilding of stations to fit longer trains so 60 meter trains will do, but so do both line 2 and 4 in Madrid metro and they are real metro lines I suppose

...
The trains of Barcelona lines 9 and 10 have got more capacity than the trains of the rest of the lines. They can carry more than 1200 people each train, as stickers inside the trains say.


Changing the subject:
Metro to Barcelona Airport is made 4 years ago, it was expected to open next year, in 2014. But it has been delayed to 2016, due to the lack of funds.

Please, sign this petition to help to open this needed metro branch in 2014:

http://www.change.org/es/peticiones/...e-abra-en-2014

THANKS!!
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Old March 16th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #210
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The trains of Barcelona lines 9 and 10 have got more capacity than the trains of the rest of the lines. They can carry more than 1200 people each train, as stickers inside the trains say.
Actually not, the 9000 series also run on line 2 and 4. The 5000 series on line 5 are 3 metre shorter than the 9000 series but have more floorspace dedicated to standing so the capacity is the same. Line 1 has wider trains but less floorspace for standing so same capacity.
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Old March 18th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #211
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Line 1 has wider trains but less floorspace for standing so same capacity.
Not anymore, trains on L1 have been refurbished, so thereīs more floorspace on L1 trains than on any other line.
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Old March 18th, 2013, 06:52 PM   #212
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Actually not, the 9000 series also run on line 2 and 4. The 5000 series on line 5 are 3 metre shorter than the 9000 series but have more floorspace dedicated to standing so the capacity is the same. Line 1 has wider trains but less floorspace for standing so same capacity.
Incorrect!
The trains of 9000 series of lines 9 and 10 have more capacity because they are automatic and they haven't got "cockpits" or "driver area".
Multiply the capacity on this photo by 5 cars:
[IMG]http://i50.************/18f1ci.jpg[/IMG]
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Old March 18th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #213
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Old March 21st, 2013, 05:33 PM   #214
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Trains of lines 9 and 10, with 5 carriages:

236 x 5 = 1180 standing people
22 x 5 = 110 people seated

TOTAL = 1290 people per train
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Old March 21st, 2013, 07:21 PM   #215
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What I meant for "" is that the pic was lopsided.
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Old March 28th, 2013, 06:28 PM   #216
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Quote:
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What I meant for "" is that the pic was lopsided.
Fixed!

News:
A short strecht of line 2 (from Passeig de Grācia to Sagrada Família) is closing for works from today March 28th to April 1st included.
Link:
http://www.tmb.cat/ca/alteracions-de...istat/metro/L2
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Old March 29th, 2013, 03:19 AM   #217
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I think itīs better if we put it in English...

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Metro L2 closed between Passeig de Grācia and Sagrada Família due to improvement works from 28 March to 1 April


www.tmb.cat

http://www.tmb.cat/en/alteracions-de...istat/metro/L2 (English)
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Last edited by 437.001; March 29th, 2013 at 03:25 AM.
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Old March 29th, 2013, 03:26 AM   #218
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Old March 30th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #219
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Please, join and sign, to open the metro to BCN Airport in 2014:
https://www.facebook.com/metroaeroport2014

L9 stations finished years ago, but never opened due to crisis and lack of money:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1515646&type=1
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Old March 30th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #220
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I donīt think that this campaign should be taken abroad.
Better walk the streets in Barcelona. That should be enough.
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