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Old September 23rd, 2010, 06:31 AM   #41
LarisaCh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redstone View Post
So sad that the communists destroyed all the classical architecture
Well, I think it's need to load some photos of Moscow buildings. I'm very sorry that I was not able to find more photos of houses because I'm flying in Spain & Portugal in coming days. Therefore I'm very busy today. Sorry....

See here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...589712&page=81
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Old September 23rd, 2010, 10:34 AM   #42
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Moscow is really nice historical city in the world.
I really inspired with the oldest city in traditions and architect.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 06:09 AM   #43
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Quote:
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So sad that the communists destroyed all the classical architecture
They didn't. Communists destroyed specific churches, in specific places, with specific national backgrounds.

Moscow is one of the least affected big cities, as far as ideological destruction of buildings was concerned. The village-like small buildings that you see on this picture were replaced gradually with larger buildings because of convenience issues. Actually, a lot of them remain in Moscow, but they're overshadowed by various commieblocks and other buildings.
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Old September 27th, 2010, 06:10 AM   #44
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The picture, however, is spectacular, though it's not the first time that I see it. It's one of my favorite urban photographs of the 19th century.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 12:55 PM   #45
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Maybe it's time to get some money and rebuild some of these Eastern-styled houses and churches. Moscow is still a beautiful city, but some buildings have to come back. Question: What are they going to build on the place of demolished Hotel Russia near the Red Square? Some reconstructions with churches and traditional old houses, or just some modern shitty buildings?
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Old May 29th, 2011, 02:12 PM   #46
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Nice picture, reminds me of the norwegian stave church. Wonder if the old moscow was inspired by the building style in Scandinavia? The vikings did get to Kiev, so why not also Moscow?

It were actual Germanic tribes who founded the direct predecessor to the czardom (Novgord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians
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Old June 1st, 2011, 05:28 PM   #47
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actually moscow on this photo is anything but beautiful, i'm really disapointed. i thought that in the xix century the second city of the empire was more monumental but exept for kremlin the buildings are maximum three floors high even in the city center... the sight is very provincial
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Old June 10th, 2011, 09:11 AM   #48
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It were actual Germanic tribes who founded the direct predecessor to the czardom (Novgord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians
"Founded the direct predecessor to the czardom" is giving them too much credit - it was a typical germanic land grab. It is Kyiv that's known as Mother of Russian Cities, because formation of a state was already going on there since the early middle ages. To assert their claim the barbarians made up a theory of founding a state in just a few decades.

Last edited by finalshine; June 10th, 2011 at 09:16 AM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 04:25 PM   #49
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Those 'barbarians' were cosmopolitic merchants and warriors, and they couldn't be that retarded if they founded an empire, at least they were superior to what else settled around there to that time...

Not to mention, that, until today, their states work pretty well and that they did have quite some experience in 'nation building'. Now, the slawic states though... oh f***!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_D...ex#2010_report

Last edited by Odoaker; June 10th, 2011 at 04:31 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #50
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AlekseyVT: I consider the most beatifoul Stalinist stile bulding built in the stile of Lomonosv University/Hotel "Ukraina" to be Casa (Scānteii) Scīnteii * **(today Presei Libere)/House of the Spark (today House of the Free Press) from Bucharest:
http://www.google.ro/search?tbm=isch...l221l970l0.4.2
http://www.google.ro/search?hl=ro&bi...l200l467l0.2.1

http://www.google.ro/search?hl=ro&bi...l0l183l298l0.2

Unfotenly is not propley cared (of course, because is in Romania): http://metropotam.ro/Locuri/2009/02/...#comments_form

I think at the time when the constuction of the bulding was ended, Casa Scīnteii was the tallest bulding in Bucharest. The tv antena was added in 1956.

* the name of the newspaper of the Romanian Worker's/Communist Party was ispiered by the Russian communist newspaper, "Iskra" (which also means "Spark").
** before the communist regime and some years after Romania becamed a communist country and a republic they usesd "ā" inside the words. After a time they replaced it with "ī". During the regim of Ceauşescu they started to write Romānia in stad of Romīnia. In 1992 or 1993 they again introduced "ā" inside words (except in words which are having a prefix, like "reīnviere", which is formed from "īnviere" and the prefix "re").
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Old June 10th, 2011, 05:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Odoaker View Post
Those 'barbarians' were cosmopolitic merchants and warriors, and they couldn't be that retarded if they founded an empire, at least they were superior to what else settled around there to that time...
Thats BS. They were culturally inferior to slavic tribes of the area and were assimilated by them in a few generations.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #52
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The fact that they ruled them should proof their superiority enough. I don't get the connection between their integration in the 'slawic' society and your proposed inferiority. Because it were only a few of them, it was a way easier to control the people. It's like a warrior becomes the emperor of China, of course you'll do all the trashy stuff, because it's cool and people love you even more. According to the chronicles, the Slavs asked the Varangians to rule them, and so they did, for advantage of both sides, they became leaders, not tyrans.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Odoaker View Post
The fact that they ruled them should proof their superiority enough.
Superiority in pure brutal force (which was a main qualification for becoming knyaz back than)? Yes, of course. Superiority in culture and development of society - nope. Being knyaz at those early stages was about assembling a fighting force and using it to protect the lands and to exctract taxes, having a viking in that position proves nothing other than this viking's military skill.

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According to the chronicles, the Slavs asked the Varangians to rule them, and so they did, for advantage of both sides, they became leaders, not tyrans.
Yes, after facing a problem with succesion due to death of local leader, they decided to invite a knyaz from foreign lands to prevent infighting among tribes. Which proves they already understood the concept of statehood. That surely wasn't an achievment of barely literate viking warrors.

Last edited by GammaHamster; June 10th, 2011 at 06:43 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #54
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I doubt any of the Slavs were capable of reading either. Superiority expresses itself in many ways, culture and warefare both seem pretty impressive to me. And they were not only conquerers , but merchants too. As today, you need indeed some skill and knowledge to be succesful with that. On the other hand, what cultural achievements of the Slavic tribes do we know from that time? Oh, yes, their story just began with the Rus, the Warangians, in fact they didn't seem to exist before, did they? So, even if we ignore the fact that the Varangarians were not only physical but also intellectual impressive for what their trading-enterprises stand for, we still have nothing for the Slavs there.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 07:25 PM   #55
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I doubt any of the Slavs were capable of reading either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_document

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Although their existence was mentioned in some old East Slavic manuscripts, the discovery of birch bark documents (Russian: берестяна́я гра́мота, berestyanįya grįmota) significantly changed the understanding of the cultural level and language spoken by the East Slavs between 11th and 15th centuries. About a hundred styluses have also been found, mostly made of iron, some of bone or bronze.

According to Valentin Yanin and Andrey Zaliznyak, most documents are ordinary letters by various people written in what is considered to be a vernacular dialect. The letters are of a personal or business character. A few documents include elaborate obscenities. Very few documents are written in Old Church Slavonic and only one in Old Norse.
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On the other hand, what cultural achievements of the Slavic tribes do we know from that time?
The creation of Kievan Rus, the biggest state in Europe is the achievement of slavic tribes. I don't see vikings doing anything like this, somehow so "advanced" and so "civilised" vikings are capable of creating huge states when slavs are involved. For some reason we see significant cultural developments in Kievan Rus only after vikings were assimilted, before that it's all pillage and conquest as fits perfectly to illitirate barbarians.

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Varangarians were not only physical but also intellectual impressive
Yeah, so intellectual impressive they couldn't write their names in their own language and needed slavs to do it for them when signing treaties with Byzanthium.


What it is with nordic people always needing to prove how racially superior they are? Weren't you taking notes in 1945?
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Old June 10th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #56
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Well, I'd say we're pretty outnumbered back then...

Your Birch Bark Whatever dates back when the "barbarians" how you call them already civilized the Slavs. Novgorod, where these documents where found, is actually a Varangian foundation.

And the Kievan Rus - come on, Rus, that's what the Slavs called the Varangians! It was their foundation, too! Well, I persume you ain't need to know how to write your name if you can rule a country by your naturally given superiority

And talking 'bout culture, anything matches this?



Anything comparable? No?

Last edited by Odoaker; June 10th, 2011 at 09:07 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 09:47 PM   #57
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Your Birch Bark Whatever dates back when the "barbarians" how you call them already civilized the Slavs.
What an ignorant statement. It should be obvious to anyone that if varangians "civilized" the Slavs then:
a) slavs should be writing in scandinavian language
b) varangians should have left birch bark documents of their own

Neither of the above is the case, which proves that slavs were more developed back then.

It was greeks who actually brought civilisation to slavs, with baptism of Kievan Rus, which happened more than a hundred of years earlier than in most of Scandinavia. That ones again proves that slavs were more advanced, unless of course you want to argue than viking culture was superior to that of greeks. Btw, for some reason, with all their achievements i don't see greeks spewing this "we are superior ubermen" bullshit.

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Novgorod, where these documents where found, is actually a Varangian foundation.
Nope, Novgorod, meaning "new city" was a new city (duh!) meant to replace varangian outpost that slavs burned down.

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And the Kievan Rus - come on, Rus, that's what the Slavs called the Varangians!
Yes, and in a couple generations those varangians were totally assimilated. Thats not what happens to "more civilised" people. Somehow everywhere slavs and varangians co-existed it's slavs who became dominant.

If we go by your logic of "civilised varangians" than Kievan state should have declined after varangians were gone, in reality directly opposite happened, golden age of Kievan Rus started when more advanced slavs took over from military skilled, but unsophisticated vikings.

Quote:
And talking 'bout culture, anything matches this?



Anything comparable? No?
Toy wooden boat?

Last edited by GammaHamster; June 10th, 2011 at 09:54 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:04 PM   #58
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Scandinavians, Teutons and the ancient Greeks are of the same ancestry. The Scandinavians wrote already with runes, long before the Slavs allowed a couple of monks to domesticate them. The Varangians were already aristocrats when the Slavs first learned to write. It ain't need sophisticated writing skills to rule an empire. But it needs mind, heart and strength. Only a few things, but some say until today Slavic nations miss them.

Were the Slavs important? No. The Vikings were. Who they feared and appreciated at the same time, who conquered whole countries?

To do, what these men did, it needed a superior culture. The toy boat just resembles the long tradition of the nautic tradition in Scandinavia. It needs some knowledge to built boats, capable to cross the Atlantic!

Of course, Slavs are not inferior. They never were. But they had a lack in development back then. Not that the Vikings were much advanced.

(And no, Novgorod was a Varangian foundation. Its founder was Rurik. His offspring ruled then until the 16 century)

Last edited by Odoaker; June 10th, 2011 at 10:14 PM.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #59
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Scandinavians, Teutons and the ancient Greeks are of the same ancestry. The Scandinavians wrote already with runes, long before the Slavs allowed a couple of monks to domesticate them. The Varangians were already aristocrats when the Slavs first learned to write. It ain't need sophisticated writing skills to rule an empire. But it needs mind, heart and strength. Only a few things, but some say until today Slavic nations miss them.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:38 PM   #60
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