daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 31st, 2010, 06:49 PM   #101
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
One thing I've been wondering about DC: does it need any subway lines that primarily serve the city proper or will the new tram lines be taking care of that?
The DC streetcars (when completed) will serve the purpose of providing intra-city transport, but DC could certainly benefit with at least one, if not two new subway lines through the city center. The aforementioned separated Blue Line along M and then H streets (running parallel to the current Orange Line) should be the priority, especially after the Silver Line comes fully on line in 2016.

From GGW:


Large:
http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...ge.png&ref=790

'Detoggling' the Yellow Line from the Green Line through the city center has also been suggested.

As far as 'primarily serving the city proper', that would be a tough sell for a regional agency like WMATA, and there would be the usual hue and cry from suburbanites about money being spent on something that doesn't directly benefit them. Pretty much any new trunk lines will have the extend a fair bit into the suburbs to be politically feasible.

From Humberto Gilmer at GGW:


This Metro buildout would also be nice.

Maybe we'll get it around the year 2150 or so.

Last edited by Dan78; September 3rd, 2010 at 05:48 PM. Reason: thumbnails
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 31st, 2010, 06:53 PM   #102
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by yop3288 View Post
Has the DC Metro ever considered running skip-stop service? I think it could increase capacity and reduce trip times.

During the morning rush, picture each train stopping at only every second station on the inbound, then stopping at all stations on the outbound. If your destination is skipped by trains from your starting point, you have to go past your station, then transfer to a train running in the opposite direction.

Requiring passengers to transfer is a pain, but it should not be too big of an issue for most riders. During the morning rush, most riders are heading downtown. Downtown stations are very close together, so many people will choose to simply get off at an alternate station and walk an extra block or two instead of transferring. Also, many riders from the outer suburbs drive to their starting point, so they can drive to a different starting station to avoid having to transfer.

For the evening rush, you'd switch to skip-stop service for outbound, all-stop service for inbound.
If memory serves, the tunnels and track layout aren't built to accommodate this type of service. "Fast" trains would be unable to get around "slow" trains. If the new M Street Blue Line is built it should be built with skip-stop service in mind.
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2010, 07:42 PM   #103
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Hmm double post

Last edited by ajw373; August 31st, 2010 at 07:47 PM.
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2010, 07:42 PM   #104
ajw373
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,249
Likes (Received): 48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan78 View Post
If memory serves, the tunnels and track layout aren't built to accommodate this type of service. "Fast" trains would be unable to get around "slow" trains. If the new M Street Blue Line is built it should be built with skip-stop service in mind.
Why would a skip stop train ever have to pass? The whole idea is two trains more or less follow each other but stopping at alternative stations. So in theory both benefit from missing half the stations without the pain of slowing down other trains, hence it does in theory increase capacity and reduces travel time.
ajw373 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2010, 08:47 PM   #105
massp88
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,182
Likes (Received): 215

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage52 View Post
So...I used the light rail to attend a Ravens game in Baltimore this past weekend and it has just further cemented my belief that the MTA just can't get a freaking clue how to work the LR for football games.

First off, I was running late. That may have been the biggest problem, but I still got to the Nursery Road LR station with 30 mins until kickoff. As I was parking, I saw a train arrive and pull away. However, a minute later, another train arrived, and I boarded, thinking I would still have plenty of time to get to the stadium in time. But since the two trains were so close, my train had to sit at each station for a few mins at a time to create space between the trains. All said and done, a trip that normally takes 15 mins took 25 mins. Whatever. So I arrived at the game a few minutes after it started. Not a big deal.

On the way home, I was running to the station as the 9:52 pm southbound train left the Camden Yards station. OK, bad luck, since I would not be writing this had I caught that train. However, the next train was schedule to arrive at 10:08 pm, but it never showed. So in the end, I waited 30 mins for the next train, which was the 10:23 pm train. And this was before the game had even ended. But, since it was a preseason game, more fans were leaving early, which created big crowds at both the Camden Yards station and the stadium station.

I have taken the LR several times, and the bad times unfortunately outweigh the good. MTA either doesn't understand the need for more trains during sporting events or just doesn't care. Had the 10:08 train arrived on time, it would have still been a long 15 min wait for a train during a major sporting event. But waiting a full 30 mins is ridiculous.

From now on, I will only take the LR when I am forced to. Until then, I will taking the #40 quickbus, which has 15 minute headways all day, and doesn't run through the crowded streets during sporting events.
Well imagine if you were waiting for the train and instead of waiting say 15 minutes you waited 25-30 because the train that was supposed to be there left 10 minutes early. All transit systems do this to adjust for the schedule. That way a train will come every 15 minutes for example, instead of 2 trains coming within 5 minutes and then people have to wait 25 for another one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yop3288 View Post
Has the DC Metro ever considered running skip-stop service? I think it could increase capacity and reduce trip times.

During the morning rush, picture each train stopping at only every second station on the inbound, then stopping at all stations on the outbound. If your destination is skipped by trains from your starting point, you have to go past your station, then transfer to a train running in the opposite direction.

Requiring passengers to transfer is a pain, but it should not be too big of an issue for most riders. During the morning rush, most riders are heading downtown. Downtown stations are very close together, so many people will choose to simply get off at an alternate station and walk an extra block or two instead of transferring. Also, many riders from the outer suburbs drive to their starting point, so they can drive to a different starting station to avoid having to transfer.

For the evening rush, you'd switch to skip-stop service for outbound, all-stop service for inbound.
You are talking about an express train. Wouldn't you need to have a third rail to do something like this? Does the Metro have third rails?
massp88 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 31st, 2010, 09:01 PM   #106
seldomseen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston
Posts: 883
Likes (Received): 119

How's the DC Metro area doing these days? I haven't been down that way since May '08. The rapid growth over the past 20+ years has been insane----especially because because new developments are your done so quickly. lol
seldomseen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2010, 02:13 AM   #107
yop3288
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
Why would a skip stop train ever have to pass? The whole idea is two trains more or less follow each other but stopping at alternative stations. So in theory both benefit from missing half the stations without the pain of slowing down other trains, hence it does in theory increase capacity and reduces travel time.
Exactly. You get the benefits of reduced average travel time and the resulting increased system capacity without requiring any extra cars or tracks. The downside is that some passengers have to transfer to reach their desired destinations.
yop3288 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2010, 05:53 AM   #108
schweitzerdude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Fairview, OR
Posts: 19
Likes (Received): 0

Skip-stop service (pro's and cons)

Chicago's metro ("L") had skip-stop service for many years, finally abandoning it totally in 1995, although it was discontinued on some lines previous to that date. For a good discussion of the pros and cons of skip-stop service, (which may or may not apply to Washington's metro), follow this link:

http://www.chicago-l.org/operations/...e_ops/A-B.html

Interestingly, on some lines ridership went up significantly when skip-stop was abandoned simply because waiting times on the platform were reduced.
schweitzerdude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2010, 07:24 PM   #109
yop3288
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
Likes (Received): 0

Wait time effect on ridership-- any idea if that was a bigger issue for outdoor stations than for underground stations? Seems like it should be, especially in the middle of a Chicago winter. DC weather is less severe, and much of DC's metro is underground, so the wait time effect may be insignificant.
yop3288 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2010, 09:31 PM   #110
schweitzerdude
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Fairview, OR
Posts: 19
Likes (Received): 0

Responding to yop3288

You are absolutely correct. Of Chicago's "L" route mileage:

11% - Subway
55% - Elevated
34% - Freeway median running plus some grade level running on a couple of lines in the burbs.

So unlike Washington, In January a Chicagoan is much more exposed to the (often) brutal Chicago winters waiting on outdoor platforms, since on a route mileage basis 89% of the lines are outdoors.
schweitzerdude no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 1st, 2010, 11:42 PM   #111
Liam0711
Birdland Enthusiast
 
Liam0711's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Towson
Posts: 377
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Some states governors can't kill projects without a vote. Is Maryland one of those states?
Doubt it. From what I hear, Maryland's governor is among the most powerful in the United States. I had an economics proffesor at Towson University tell me that he thought the governor of Illinois was powerful...until he moved to MD. I'm pretty sure whoever is elected governor would have the ability to veto, or atleast delay, something such as the Red and Purple Lines.
__________________
Baltimore, Maryland.
Liam0711 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2010, 12:20 AM   #112
manrush
Agenda 21 Advocate
 
manrush's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Urban New England
Posts: 4,150
Likes (Received): 499

Does Washington DC itself have any control over what gets built where?

That is, can the city construct a separate subway network that serves the capital's urban area, or is transit funding a hostage to suburban politics?
manrush no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2010, 05:57 PM   #113
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
Does Washington DC itself have any control over what gets built where?

That is, can the city construct a separate subway network that serves the capital's urban area, or is transit funding a hostage to suburban politics?
The regional transit agency, WMATA, has control of funds for operations and potential expansions. It would be hypothetically possible to build a downtown-only Metro subway line, but very unlikely considering the political and tax structure of the area. Any new cross-town lines will almost certainly extend into the suburbs (not necessarily a bad thing). WMATA also doesn't have dedicated funding and is heavily dependent on federal grants.

Washington Metro is more like a hybrid between Metro and Commuter Rail than are older style Metros like Paris's or New York City's. It was also designed primarily as a way to ferry suburbanites in and out of the city and not as an intra-city transit system, which explains its 'radial' rather than 'net like' layout. This also helps explain why ticket prices are distance-based rather than a flat fee.

In short, there's nothing stopping the city proper from constructing its own subway system (Tokyo and Philadelphia both have subways run by different agencies, as does NYC if you count PATH) except 1). lack of perceived need and 2). lack of funding. Also, much of the city is already serviced by Metro, so at this point more subway construction is mainly "filling in the gaps", so there's not overwhelming pressure for an intra-city subway network.

The city is doing something similar to building its own parallel network anyway, with the new streetcars. The streetcars will be operated by DCDOT and not by WMATA, so where their routes are placed will not be subject to the whims of those in Virginia and Maryland.

Last edited by Dan78; September 2nd, 2010 at 07:35 PM. Reason: typo
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 2nd, 2010, 06:25 PM   #114
Mirage52
Registered User
 
Mirage52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Baltimore via Frederick
Posts: 866
Likes (Received): 168

For inter-city transit, the circulator buses in DC and Baltimore have both had a lot of success lately. I like the idea of bringing back streetcars, but really, it's nothing that the circulator buses can't already do.

http://www.dccirculator.com/

http://www.charmcitycirculator.com/
Mirage52 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2010, 10:00 AM   #115
FDW
Registered User
 
FDW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage52 View Post
For inter-city transit, the circulator buses in DC and Baltimore have both had a lot of success lately. I like the idea of bringing back streetcars, but really, it's nothing that the circulator buses can't already do.

http://www.dccirculator.com/

http://www.charmcitycirculator.com/
The streetcars will do much better than the buses for one reason in particular: Permanence, A bus can be taken away overnight, but a streetcar line? The rails in the street show it isn't going anywhere, at least not without one hell of an embarssing fight.
FDW no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:00 PM   #116
Mirage52
Registered User
 
Mirage52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Baltimore via Frederick
Posts: 866
Likes (Received): 168

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDW View Post
The streetcars will do much better than the buses for one reason in particular: Permanence, A bus can be taken away overnight, but a streetcar line? The rails in the street show it isn't going anywhere, at least not without one hell of an embarssing fight.
Agree/disagree.

We all see the abandoned streetcar tracks in cities across America everyday...so they weren't exactly permanent.

Yet buses are still running, 60 years later.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have rail based service over buses all the time. But I still do believe buses are better for inter city transportation.

I took the #40 quickbus to the O's game last night. Got me downtown in 15 mins. The LR and subway in Baltimore can't do that.
Mirage52 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:47 PM   #117
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage52 View Post
We all see the abandoned streetcar tracks in cities across America everyday...so they weren't exactly permanent.
That's true, but the "streetcar holocaust" as it's called is very unlikely to happen again. Also, we don't so much see abandoned tracks as we do no tracks at all--most were removed so they could be melted down for scrap iron. In some places, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, a little bit in NW D.C., you can still see semi-intact tracks.

I've got nothing against intra-city buses per se (I use them all the time), but I think for higher-volume routes streetcars are better (and grade-separated heavy rail better still, if warranted). The surety and permanence of their route is part of their appeal, and part of the reason anti-transit nuts don't like them...far easier to get rid of buses if they get the upper hand.

That said, the importance of buses to D.C. can't be overstated. If WMATA would get on board with Google maps and share their info, it'd be a happy day for area transit users.
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 3rd, 2010, 11:30 PM   #118
Clipper123
Registered User
 
Clipper123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 208
Likes (Received): 24

Transit score on walkscore.com

Does anyone know why Baltimore does not score on the transit score application on walkscore.com

http://blog.walkscore.com/2010/08/tr...-on-your-site/

Walkscore.com places a score based on the walkability of an address by proximity to restaurants, bars, theaters, etc are within walking distance using google maps. The Transit score application within walkscore.com scores transit options, but this particular option is not working for Baltimore. It might relate to MTA's lack of open data.

Any thoughts?
Clipper123 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #119
Rail_Serbia
Registered User
 
Rail_Serbia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Beograd
Posts: 964
Likes (Received): 670

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDW View Post
The streetcars will do much better than the buses for one reason in particular: Permanence, A bus can be taken away overnight, but a streetcar line? The rails in the street show it isn't going anywhere, at least not without one hell of an embarssing fight.
Standards for good streetcar systems are:
- Intervals not more then 7min. (tolerance to maximum 10-12min.)
- Lines not shorter then 4 miles (6km)
- Dedicated lanes (tolerance for bus or taxi, but better without them)
- 2-3 lines on one section, for more possible rides without transfer

The most of cities in USA which wanna make streetcar line, plan it like short lines with long intervals, and streetcar like this more look like a fashion then useful type of transport.

Main benefits of streetcar are:
- Much more business and tourist activities near streetcar lines, especially little business activities
- Streetcar is the favorite type of transit, and the most successful alternative for cars in downtown area. Standing in streetcar don't make people tired like standing in bus.
- One streetcar user uses 1/15 city space of car user. Saved city space may be used for parks, trees in the street, pedestrian and semi-pedestrian streets, and make city relaxed and more comfortable for life.
- Better service and better image for tourists and other guests in the city. Streetcars track make people better oriented, like backbone of city connections.
- Possibility for using like stage of building long distance and rapid LRT, or like downtown part of long LRT line.(streetcar is one kind of LRT).
- Lower operating costs, higher possible capacity and better reliability then buses, like technical benefits.
- Ecology reasons.

Streetcar projects need more knowledge in planing and operating, like all railways, and that is especially important for new systems, where there is no staff with experience. I think that USA transit agencies can make great development if they use staff and experts from Europian and CIS states.
Rail_Serbia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #120
Dan78
Registered User
 
Dan78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston/Washington DC/Berlin
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail_Serbia View Post
Standards for good streetcar systems are:
- Intervals not more then 7min. (tolerance to maximum 10-12min.)
- Lines not shorter then 4 miles (6km)
- Dedicated lanes (tolerance for bus or taxi, but better without them)
- 2-3 lines on one section, for more possible rides without transfer
K Street in D.C. is particularly suited for streetcars, as it has lanes that were designed for the first D.C. streetcar system dating from the late 19th century.

Map showing all proposed (some alternate) routes:
image hosted on flickr



36 Reasons Streetcars Are Better Than Buses


The D.C. Circulator bus system currently in place is fine, but some of the more heavily traveled routes warrant upgrade to rail.
Dan78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
baltimore, public transit, washington

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium