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Old April 30th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #21
Tiaren
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Thank you very much Brisavoine!

No, unfortunately I've never been to Strasbourg...

One thing that shocked me now, was the picture of Colmar! I didn't know the city was that devasted by war! It looks so lovely today! The French did such a great job rebuilding/recontructing those cities.
Only the charming Rothenburg ob der Tauber comes to my mind of such an entire reconstruction here in Germany.
Edit:
I just saw, that was just a village near Colmar. Nevertheless, the reconstructions in Strasbourg were very well done.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
I just saw, that was just a village near Colmar.
Yes, it's a village near Colmar. The city of Colmar itself didn't suffer too much from the war, but the villages around it were devastated by the battle in January and February 1945 to reduce the Colmar Pocket (Brückenkopf Elsaß) where the German Nineteenth Army had entrenched itself, determined to hold the area at any cost.

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Old April 30th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #23
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The village near Colmar whose picture I posted on the previous page is Ammerschwihr. It was one of the picturesque villages of Alsace before the war, but it was 85% destroyed in 1944-1945.



It was rebuilt after the war. Here you can see some pictures.

[img]http://i42.************/2qxpy0h.jpg[/img]



image hosted on flickr


Who would believe that this was 85% destroyed in WW2?
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Fountain built in 1560, with some rebuilt buildings around:


This is how the fountain looked in 1945:


One of the towers of the Medieval town wall:


The old town hall, built in 1552, was destroyed in December 1944 and not rebuilt after the war:

Last edited by brisavoine; April 30th, 2010 at 07:51 PM.
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Old April 30th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #24
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Awesome job!
I guess Germans didn't take so much care of their own devasted cities, because of selfhatred...
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Old May 1st, 2010, 12:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Awesome job!
I guess Germans didn't take so much care of their own devasted cities, because of selfhatred...
less due to self hatred, but more due to lack of funding and sheer manpower. The victors received the vast majority of post war aid. Per person Marshall Plan aid to GB was $66., France $54., Netherlands $113., Norway $124., Denmark $96. while Germany was $21. Yet Germany was by far the most devasted. So, the goals immediately post war in Germany were not design oriented, architectural importance, or historical accuracy...they were pure and utter shelter and housing as quickly and as cheaply as possible.

Last edited by keepthepast; May 1st, 2010 at 01:35 AM.
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Old May 1st, 2010, 03:21 PM   #26
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I'm glad they rebuilt that village, it would've been a terrible loss for the world if it had become one of those personality-empty glass and iron cities.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #27
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I loved this thread, lovely cities, and lots of info about an utmost unknown city for me.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:45 AM   #28
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At least they didn't destroy Cathedral, in my oppinion the most beautiful in Europe.
And I have to agree too, Belgrade was destroyed much more by "Allies" than Nazis.
Strasbourg is just incredible.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Belgrader View Post
At least they didn't destroy Cathedral, in my oppinion the most beautiful in Europe.
And I have to agree too, Belgrade was destroyed much more by "Allies" than Nazis.
Strasbourg is just incredible.

Belgrade has its second dose of Allied bombs and destruction during Bill Clinton's authorized attacks in which the city was devastated.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 06:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3SPIRES View Post
You have to look at the bombings in context of what was going on in the war at the time. It is easy to criticise Allied bombing in isolation but it would do you good to remember the words of Arthur 'Bomber' Harris "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."

I think Japanese forumers set the best example - they lost more of their cities than anyone else but I have yet to see them criticise Allied bombing.
Bombings of cities full of cillians can never be justified.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 06:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiaren View Post
Awesome job!
I guess Germans didn't take so much care of their own devasted cities, because of selfhatred...
There was very little self hatred in Germany in 1945.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 06:36 PM   #32
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Looking at this i think its a shame that we didnt restore more in the UK, this is coventry cathedral

Before WWII


During WWII


Today




Interestingly A permanent memorial to thousands of RAF bomber aircrew who died during the Second World War has just been given the go-ahead. One was never built in the post war years because of the publics disaproval when images like those previously posted reached the UK. The proposal was still very controversial today.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #33
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Some pictures from 1945, and the same places today. As you can see, Strasbourg was much more destroyed during WW2 than what most people imagine. The city was very well rebuilt though. They kept the Medieval street plan, and often used traditional stones from the Vosges mountains to rebuild the destroyed buildings, with different styles for each building, so sometimes you wouldn't know the buildings were rebuilt after WW2. It's by far the best reconstruction in France. I don't know why the other French cities were not rebuilt as well as Strasbourg.

Rue du 22 novembre
1945:


Today:


Rue du faubourg de Pierre (Steinstross)
1945:


Today: (who could guess these buildings were rebuilt after 1945!)


Pont du Corbeau (Rawebruck)
After the Allied bombing of August 11, 1944:
[img]http://i52.************/2e6eyqp.png[/img]

Today: (look for the red and blue dots; as you can see, the building to the right, with the blue dot, which is the Medieval Customs House, was rebuilt in a fake historical style that still looks nice but that is not how the building looked before 1944)
[img]http://i52.************/33ynbia.png[/img]


Place Gutenberg
1945:


Today:
[img]http://i56.************/55qx6g.jpg[/img]

Rue de Rohan
1945:
[img]http://i54.************/14nobuq.png[/img]

The red dot is a private building.

The blue dot is the east wing of the Maison de Notre-Dame (Frauenhüs in Alsatian) built in 1347. It has been the core building of the foundation (or fabric) in charge of constructing and then maintaining and restoring the Cathedral of Strasbourg since the Middle Ages. The foundation, called Fondation de l’Œuvre Notre-Dame, was incorporated in the 13th century and still exists today.

The green dot is the Palais Rohan, the palace of the bishops of Strasbourg, built in the 18th century.

Today:
[img]http://i55.************/29bozmv.png[/img]

[img]http://i51.************/2aieb0i.png[/img]

Last edited by brisavoine; October 26th, 2010 at 09:42 PM.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #34
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Fantastic before and after photographs. Really interesting stuff.

I have a question though: why did so many cities on continental Europe reconstruct old buildings and yet in the UK hardly anything was reconstructed? I really don't know the answer (although I think it's true to say that the quality, and quantity, of the UK's historic architecture pre-war was nowhere near as great as was found in Europe.)
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 05:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Some pictures from 1945, and the same places today. As you can see, Strasbourg was much more destroyed during WW2 than what most people imagine. The city was very well rebuilt though. They kept the Medieval street plan, and often used traditional stones from the Vosges mountains to rebuild the destroyed buildings, with different styles for each building, so sometimes you wouldn't know the buildings were rebuilt after WW2. It's by far the best reconstruction in France. I don't know why the other French cities were not rebuilt as well as Strasbourg.

Rue du 22 novembre
1945:


Today:


Rue du faubourg de Pierre (Steinstross)
1945:


Today: (who could guess these buildings were rebuilt after 1945!)

(désolé ça sera en français, mais brisavoine comprendra)

Il y a là 2 énormes erreurs.
La 1ère photo date de 1912 et non de 1945, il s'agit d'une photo prise lors de "la grande percée de la rue du 22 novembre" initié par les allemands, où de nombreux petits immeubles de type médiéval ont été rasés volontairement pour laisser place à une large rue bordé de grands immeubles, cette rue n'a pas subit de dommage en 1945.
Pour la 2ème photo, la rue du faubourg de Pierre a en effet été bombardé... mais c'était en 1870 ! Date de cette photo, prise après les bombardements par ces même allemands qui ont d'ailleurs rapidement reconstruit cette rue, composé aujourd'hui d'immeubles tous construit après 1870 (une majeur partie entre 1870 et 1875) en ayant subit aucun dommage lors de la 2ww.

There is 2 mistakes.
The first photo dates from 1912 and not 1945, it is a photo taken at "La grande percée de la rue du 22 novembre" initiated by the Germans, where many small medieval type buildings were razed voluntarily to make room for a wide street lined with tall buildings, this street has not suffered damage in 1945.
For the second photo, la rue du Faubourg de Pierre was indeed bombed ... but it was in 1870! Date of this photo, taken after the bombing by these same Germans who also quickly rebuilt the street, now comprised of all buildings constructed after 1870 (a major part between 1870 and 1875) having suffered any damage during the 2WW.




Mais je vais en profiter pour compléter ce thread avec d'autres photos.

Le palais du rhin a été en partie endomagé par les bombardements, et encore aujourd'hui, on en voit encore les traces. (à l'intérieur)



La BNU n'ont plus n'a été épargné (L'intérieur a été touché)


aujourd'hui (style année 50, alors qu' ils auraient pu facilement restaurer l'intérieur qui présentait des allures impériales fort intéressant )


En 2014


Alors que l'extérieur est intact



La poste centrale

Avant 1945


1945


Aujourd'hui (Je n’appelle pas ça une " reconstruction " )



De même tout ces immeubles ont été détruit lors des bombardements, et ils n'ont jamais été reconstruit.

Exemple

Pont du corbeau avant 1945


Aujourd'hui


_
Place de la gare, avant 1945


Aujourd'hui


_
Quai saint-jean
Avant 1945


Aujourd'hui



On ne peut pas dire que la ville a reconstruit des quartiers entiers... elle a parfois reconstruit, parfois 'bouché les trous', et parfois remplacé tout simplement les immeubles endommagés par des constructions modernes.

Last edited by Hapower; November 3rd, 2010 at 05:43 PM.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #36
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
The bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and tokyo are criticized all the time. Regarding the bombings of Germany, the issue is a matter of scope. Dresden lost more civilians in 2 days than England in all the war from aerial bombings, for example.
The point of the thread, in part, is to mourn the loss of buildings indiscriminately destroyed during the war. It is fairly silly to consider their destruction a worthy cause when we are all bemoaning their fate.
Woah... sorry for going off-topic, but... er... don't think so!

Estimates for numbers killed in Dresden are for between 18,000 and 25,000 people.
British civilians killed in World War 2 - circa 67,000. Approximately 43,000 by German bombers during The Blitz, half of them in London.

The larger numbers that get bandied around were largely as a result of Goebbels inspired propaganda at the time.
Source 1: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...581992,00.html
Source 2:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

This is not to excuse what happened. It is remarkable that the numbers for Dresden are broadly similar to the numbers of British civilians killed in London for example. I'm neither condemning or condoning here, and it's probably distasteful to argue the numbers of what was doubtless a tragedy for all sides... but check your facts first.

Here's an interesting little chart from Wikipedia for example. Probably skewed by the huge numbers of casualties in Russia, but gives some insight into why the Allies at the time were perhaps a little ticked off:

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