Melbourne Public Transport (Part II)

[jonas jade]

They're dual system Stadtbahn (tram-trains) that run diesel on unelectrified railway track outside of the CBD and then raise their pantograph and run on 750V DC for travel on inner-city tram lines.

They're in the same vain as Karlsruhe's dual voltage tram trains except their second power supply is diesel. For Germany/Europe not really a new concept - Karlsruhe has operated Stadtbahn since 1992.

[TRAVLEX]

Thanks Jonas, have seen some of the Karlsruhe system, looks great for small-medium density communities, even arriving from Stuttgart on DB as they diced around & in heavy rail.
Hadn’t seen the diesel electric tram before Kassel but did see somewhere about some issues at one stage.

[jam5]

I have a question, and while this may sound silly, I still have to ask it:

Are Melbourne's trains all air-conditioned? Because I know Sydney's city rail cars (for some odd reason) are not. I don't entirely understand why they are not, as the summers there can get quite hot.

[Gobillino]

All but the old Hitachis (about 6 still in service i think) are air conditioned. I think that the remaining Hitachis will be retired from service once the full suite of new trains currently on order are all on the rails.

[SunCoast1976]

I'm an ex Victorian and a bit of a history buff. Can someone in the know tell me what happened to the old Taits, Harris', Hitachis and Comengs. Are they all gone or there still some floating around in a museum somewhere?

Thanks.

[L2]

Originally Posted by jam5

Are Melbourne's trains all air-conditioned? Because I know Sydney's city rail cars (for some odd reason) are not. I don't entirely understand why they are not, as the summers there can get quite hot.

Almost all are apart from 2 or 3 random old surviving ones from a fleet of 1970s vintage sets that were mostly replaced from 2002-2006.

On the CityRail network, all intercity carriages are air conditioned, but about 40% of suburban carriages are the original double-deck sets built from 1972 onwards which have no heating OR cooling.

The remainder of trains built from 1981 to present (K sets & newer) in Sydney have air conditioning.

Originally Posted by SunCoast1976

I'm an ex Victorian and a bit of a history buff. Can someone in the know tell me what happened to the old Taits, Harris', Hitachis and Comengs. Are they all gone or there still some floating around in a museum somewhere?

All the types trains you mentioned apart from the Taits are still in daily revenue service in some way.

Harris cars = V/Line interurban cars (H sets), still a couple of Hitachi trains running and the entire Comeng fleet is still operational apart from ones scrapped after accidents over the years.

[SydneyCity]

Sydney's remaining non-air conditioned fleet (the L/R/S sets) are being replaced with the current Waratah order.

And the percentage of non-air conditioned stock (a couple of years back when CityRail put up posters at stations) was 31%, not 40%. It is likely to be slightly less now that several Waratahs have already been delivered.

[L2]

Originally Posted by SydneyCity

And the percentage of non-air conditioned stock (a couple of years back when CityRail put up posters at stations) was 31%, not 40%. It is likely to be slightly less now that several Waratahs have already been delivered.

I'm talking about for suburban trains, not the entire CityRail suburban, Intercity & Regional network.

The 31% figure includes things like the Hunter railcars running from Newcastle City to Telarah that most Sydney commuters have probably never seen or heard of.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

I have said it a million times but here are some thoughts:
1. we can't make over rail line developments stack up in the CBD (the age actually barely hangs over the train line as most of it is in the line of the v-line platforms that stop north of Collins Street).

2. the only place it really exists outside the CBD is Chapel Street where a very small strucutre (cheap to build) takes advantage of the highest retail rents in Melbourne.

3. the Camberwell Station redevelopment actually builds on land adjoining teh station like the station carpark and the garden abutting the side street. above the station itself is essentialy a flat deck new station entry.

4. even in Sydney most oversight developments (including Chatswood) the development is rarely literally above the train line but taking advantage of plots of land off the railway with some minor canterlevering over the railway.

5. even in Hong Kong MTR's much vaunted funding method and income from private property development is largely from land bought from the government of Hong Kong (the main shareholder of MTR) 'off market', the land is bought in return for construction of train lines. The train lines are generally built under roads (like the City Loop is under LaTrobe and Spring Streets) with development on standard blocks adjoining the road. Often podiums or underground mezzanine levels are incorporated above rail infrastructure with shopping malls etc. but in comparison to Melbourne the land value is extremely high, the population density is extremely high and the station throughput is extremely high all making for better market conditions to build shopping malls at great expense.

JP here's some good stuff on NSW enquiry into airspace. Wonder if the Baillieu Govt will pick up on it.
http://www.theleader.com.au/news/loc...y/2422799.aspx

[Dockside]

Not whilst we're under Failiew, he's likely just to say NO to anything like that just so he would'nt have to face the local nimbys/opponents, he is just to weak a state Premier to even look at such measures.
I do want to have faith that Bailliew really does have something up his sleave for Victoria/Melb, but i honestly believe that Bailliew hasn't a thing other than undoing all the great advancements Victoria has enjoyed since the Kennett era.
Now its back to Failliew..

[John_Proctor]

the Committee for Melbourne is doing work on this as part of their grade separations policy.

I expect that is the most likely source of new information with respect to this topic in coming months. think they are aiming to release their policy paper in middle of the year and from what I have heard their is a 'steering group' that includes DOT, VicRoads and DPCD helping Committee for Melbourne with their work.

(see page 12/13 of the below)
http://www.melbourne.org.au/docs/annual-review-2011.pdf


I have also heard:
- that E-Gate is looking at incorporating some airspace around North Melbourne Station/the Metro stabling yards.
- that VicTrack is looking at oversight development on Church Street near East Richmond Station.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

the Committee for Melbourne is doing work on this as part of their grade separations policy.

I expect that is the most likely source of new information with respect to this topic in coming months. think they are aiming to release their policy paper in middle of the year and from what I have heard their is a 'steering group' that includes DOT, VicRoads and DPCD helping Committee for Melbourne with their work.

(see page 12/13 of the below)
http://www.melbourne.org.au/docs/annual-review-2011.pdf

I have also heard:
- that E-Gate is looking at incorporating some airspace around North Melbourne Station/the Metro stabling yards.
- that VicTrack is looking at oversight development on Church Street near East Richmond Station.

Thx jp. Excellent. Humantransit posted this which you will enjoy. http://trimet.org/choices/why-is-the...-shortfall.htm

could you imagine our inept political system allowing bureaucrats such freedom to speak truth AND ask the public for ideas on reprioritising the budget. Our insecure little weasels of pollies couldn't handle it.

[MelbourneOnTheRise]

Just read in the HUN that 30 of the initial 38 X'Trapolis trains purchased under the VTP are now running on the network, which leaves about 8 months before the next type of rolling stock's turn is up. I seem to remember there being another 30 "next generation" trains being planned after these 38.

The DoT website says that 7 of 40 next generation trains will arrive by 2014. Just wondering whether the orders have been combined to bring the new rolling stock figure to 70 or its just the 40 mentioned on the DoT website. Also does anyone know when they're due to arrive?

I guess there might be a gap of about 2 years between the last of the 38 Xtraps arriving in Q4 '12 and the 7 of 40 next gen trains arriving some time in '14.

[L2]

Originally Posted by MelbourneOnTheRise

I guess there might be a gap of about 2 years between the last of the 38 Xtraps arriving in Q4 '12 and the 7 of 40 next gen trains arriving some time in '14.

Uhhhh, they haven't even designed the 'next gen' trains yet, let alone decided on a supplier, let alone ordered anything

Somehow I doubt you'll see anything delivered by 2014.

[MelbourneOnTheRise]

It's an election promise from BallyWho. He seems fairly obsessed with doing nothing other than keeping election promises so... But that is worrying that they haven't even been designed yet. I think there must be more of the same Xtraps to come, which is what prompted my confusion with what's written on the DoT website about the 40 next gen ones.

[jarf]

The seven additional trains are just an extension to the X'Trapolis order, bringing the total to 45.

Nothing special, unfortunately.

[John_Proctor]

exactly. 38 + 7 = 45 and all delivered by mid 2013 I think.

the other 33 trains are likely to be 'next generation' but when and how they are ordered isn't very clear. I'd be intersted to see the 2011 public transport patronage figures... I suspect there'd be a flattening off of the growth we'd seen in the previous 5 years as the econmomy has stayed reasonably flat and economic conditions (CBD Employment, international student numbers) are big drivers of PT growth.

if the numbers are flatter than forecast and then next couple of years are looking like slow growth as well it might by some time to sort out what the next order shoudl look like.

Maybe the next order of next gen trains will be a specific order for a specific task eg. high capacity commuter trains for dandenong corridor or specialised rolling stock for a Rowville or Doncaster line, or true 'metro' rollingstock to be used only on short haul routes like Glen Waverley, Sandringham.

[Harold Winthrop]

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

I'd be intersted to see the 2011 public transport patronage figures... I suspect there'd be a flattening off of the growth we'd seen in the previous 5 years as the econmomy has stayed reasonably flat and economic conditions (CBD Employment, international student numbers) are big drivers of PT growth.

if the numbers are flatter than forecast and then next couple of years are looking like slow growth as well it might by some time to sort out what the next order shoudl look like.

And if the drivers for rail patronage (CBD employment, international students) that you've quoted above are flattening out, then trying to create more services going to the CBD isn't the answer. Rail does the inner core and CBD task very well (mode share of 75% I recall), but doesn't do the suburban centres or middle and outer suburbs well. Perhaps the next big rolling stock order should be for buses and the 'efficiency dividend' of not ordering extra trains could be invested into on-road priority for buses (and trams).

[L2]

Whalepage people really do annoy me. Today's shit comment in response to one of me about Sunbury electrification:

Originally Posted by Some idiot

And as for the attitude to the effect of electification on boganisation - well not liking it doesn't make it untrue. Sparks will bring bogans - its true. That's no reason not to electrify though. Just face up to it, acknowledge it and do something about it. Denying it wont help.

Sounds like a climate change argument, with how believers always call people who disagree with them climate change deniers

[cjb287]

I haven't really bothered with railpage since that massive outage a while back. Sort of relieved actually. Too many conflicting opinions and attitudes in that place for any sort of legible discussion. Industry insiders and railway staff vs. foamers, gunzels and the ignorant travelling public. But then, you find that with most of these transport forums.