Melbourne Public Transport (Part II)

[ChrisJudd83]

Isn't the state government investigating 9 car trains along the dandenong line thAt will run through eddington tunnel? Glenhuntly rd area I know well and it baffles me why ormond is higher up on the list. There is plenty of scope to build a
New sunk Glenhuntly station across the otherside opposite those flats which can be paid for by developing the current site of the station with a couple
Hundred apartments and there's your level crossing removal paid for. Wikipedia definition states that a metro system is one separate from level crossings, intercity and freight trains so they really need a dedicated freight line along a quadded dandenong line headed to the port of Hastings and country trains also separated to really kick start this metro dream which Sydney is already doing. Although I think the nw rail link was over kill and should have only gone to epping with leftover funds used for servicing the west link or epping-parramatta.

[John_Proctor]

Originally Posted by NoshowwithoutPunch

The cup is definitely half full for you JP.

When I see 'trip attractors' like Noble Park but Chadstone missed I can only scratch my head at that.

You don't see all the transport demand that is not being accommodated on the PT system. You know, the other 90%. Even taking 11% of that and making it 80%, then doubles PT usage. More than enough justification for $50 Billion, or more.

Brumby forecast Melbourne as having 8 million people in a few decades.

8 million. Think about that number.

8 million. Four lanes of Tulla each way ain't gonna do it. Four lanes of Monash ditto.

8000 pax on the Dandy line ain't gonna do it. The Murrumbeena level crossing ain't gonna do it.

The double track at Officer, nearly 60kms from Melbourne and over one hour travel time away by slow and cumbersome Siemens, ain't gonna do it.

JPro, I could put the onus back on you and the DoT, come up with a business plan for 8 million people that involves the legacy network. Include the Riversdale Rd level crossing on the Alamein line. The Z classes diverting off Mt Alex Rd for no particular reason, or missing Highpoint by a block.

Explain how the Port of Hastings could be established with 30 trains a day running between the Frangas and all crawling across Glenhuntly Rd tram grid.

You don't need me to write the business case. The WA Dept of Transport can do it for me. The NSW government could do it, maligned as they are. It has shown just how easy it is to get rid of level crossings, only a few more to go now. That same government has just found 9 billion for 27 kilometres of underground railway, we can't even manage a rail line down the Eastern and under Shoppingtown.

The fact is it isn't that DOT hasn't offered a solution to the problem its that you just don't like the solution that has been offered.

Just think about what has happened in the last 10 years on PT in Victoria in you'll see the tide has already turned to proper planning and a and end game future network model.

1. Merri Creek Bridge Duplication Hurstbridge Line
2. Craigieburn/Sunbury Electrifications
3. Laverton Turnback (don't mention Westall turnback!)
4. Werribee, Frankston, Sandringham generally removed from the loop.
5. duplication Keon Park-Epping (and extension to South Morang)
6. 50% of train fleet is new in that time
7. level crossings: Taylors Road, Kings Road, Springvale Road, Middlebrough Road, Footscray Road (freight), Kororoir Creek Road, Anderson Road (x2) and Springvale Road and Mitcham/Rooks (upcoming), ie. more in the last 10 years than the previous 30 years. and probably more in the next 10 years than the last 10 years.
8. Abandonment of Dandenong 3rd track (good thing as it was a pointless proejct and shows some maturity in the planning at DOT)
9. Craigieburn, Westall, Newport Stabling/Maintenance Yard upgrades (allowing greater sectorisation of the network and increased availability of trains).
10. Regional Rail Link
11. Planning for Melbourne Metro (whether you like it or not)

most of those projects can be directly inter-linked in terms of sectorisation and simpler operation of the network in a 'metro style' (lets call it RER) system.

obviously some misses in their too...
Myki, Southern Cross Station, Westall (but even the misses have there positives and will probably be viewed favourably in the longer term).

The strategy is working too... have you noticed that patronage is up about 7% a year on average for the last 10 years? are you aware mode share is now ~14% not 10% (and tracking ahead of 2020/20 target from MOTC)? are you aware that the average age of kids first getting their license is increasing as more use PT for longer? noted the growth in off peak travel? noted Smartbus and route 401, 601 bringing different riders to buses? etc...

You talk about the value of spending $50 billion and getting to 20% mode share but fail to see the value in the 'free' existing 14% -- throw away the legacy system and work out where those 250 million trips will go... Further what about the 500 million trips that will be on the existing tracks/stations in 10 years through simple ridership growth???


I'd enjoy seeing your $50 billion for a new fantasy rail network that would be enoguh to build you about 50km of track with 50 stations (not the ~400km of legacy lines with 212 stations)


As I said NSWP - for between $1-2 billion you can get 25,000pph on the Dandenong line with no level crossings and modern signalling/power systems. Your alternative in the same ballpark price range to that 'legacy' project would probably be enough to get a 3km long toy railway between Chadstone and Caulfield.


this is the real world of infrastructure project construction, not some little fantasy where a benign dictatorship allows you to build an elevated train line down Sydney Road with no thought to direct amenity impacts... or where you'd just close a line for 12 months and completely rebuild it (bus replacements would eb rather expensive I imagine)... or where you just force developers/landowners (eg. Chadstone) to build a station for you (or give up land for a station) or any other alternative that you/Paul Mees and others think might make these projects cheaper/better/faster delivered etc.

[John_Proctor]

Originally Posted by ChrisJudd83

Isn't the state government investigating 9 car trains along the dandenong line thAt will run through eddington tunnel? Glenhuntly rd area I know well and it baffles me why ormond is higher up on the list. There is plenty of scope to build a
New sunk Glenhuntly station across the otherside opposite those flats which can be paid for by developing the current site of the station with a couple
Hundred apartments and there's your level crossing removal paid for.

North Road is higher because the list is clearly a roads based list not public transport... North Road probably carries double the vehicle volumes of Glen Huntly Road.

200 flats would not pay for the level crossing removal. (1000 flats probably wouldn't pay for it) the simple reason being that a cheaper/less risky project could be constructed elsewhere for those same 200 apartments and therefore a developer will have no interest in developing above Glen Huntly Station.

[Gobillino]

Originally Posted by ChrisJudd83

Isn't the state government investigating 9 car trains along the dandenong line thAt will run through eddington tunnel?

Actually, that's a point that I hadn't considered (might have been discussed in here previously and I'd just been caught napping!)

Surely they've not been designing Melbourne Metro to accomodate 9 car trains at each of the four new stations?

Oh wait a minute. Dejavu. Maybe it has been discussed in here. Does 9 carrriage Dandy trains mean 9 car Sydenham trains? (apologies, I just got a strange feeling that I'VE actually asked that qn in here before...)

[John_Proctor]

Yes, yes and yes.

If you think about the capacity of a 9 car train (maybe as high as 1500) having em all filtered to fss and sxs won,t distribute the load across the CBD well enough... And extending the city loop platforms would be too technically challenging to complete. So that only really leaves the Melbourne metro stations.

9 car trains might start before metro is finished though into fss to give a short term supply boost.

[Gobillino]

Makes sense. Will make for four very bloody expensive subway stations though!

[L2]

Is this woman an example of extreme laziness? If the drive from South Morang to Preston was so appalling that it really takes 90 minutes (find that hard to believe) why wouldn't she already be using the train from Epping? Even catching the bus to the station would only take 10-15min longer than direct train from South Morang.

Strange people, suppose people like this woman are why some argue for single seat journeys.

http://www.northernweekly.com.au/new...e/2513862.aspx

SOUTH Morang resident Kloie van Hooft drives to her Preston job as a marketing manager five days a week, a peak-hour commute that takes 90 minutes each way.

When the new station opens, she'll have to walk only four minutes from her home, spend 20 minutes travelling to Preston station, then walk four minutes to work.

She'll spend 80 minutes less travelling each day, and estimates she'll spend $30-$40 a week on train fares instead of $70 on petrol.

"I'll be able to go out more at night, and not be doing my grocery shopping at 8pm," she said. "I'll go visit my niece in Mernda. "

[John_Proctor]

I could probably walk from south morang to Preston in 90 minutes. Agree a very non factual article... Perhaps 90minutes was the longest it's ever taken her?

[ChrisJudd83]

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

Yes, yes and yes.

If you think about the capacity of a 9 car train (maybe as high as 1500) having em all filtered to fss and sxs won,t distribute the load across the CBD well enough... And extending the city loop platforms would be too technically challenging to complete. So that only really leaves the Melbourne metro stations.

9 car trains might start before metro is finished though into fss to give a short term supply boost.

What about extending the platforms of the stations along the Dandenong line also assuming that it is a "metro" service with frequent stops? Surely that'll have to be incorporated into the plans. What will happen to the 6 car trains? Should be used for commuter style expresses i reckon.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

The fact is it isn't that DOT hasn't offered a solution to the problem its that you just don't like the solution that has been offered.

Just think about what has happened in the last 10 years on PT in Victoria in you'll see the tide has already turned to proper planning and a and end game future network model.

1. Merri Creek Bridge Duplication Hurstbridge Line
2. Craigieburn/Sunbury Electrifications
3. Laverton Turnback (don't mention Westall turnback!)
4. Werribee, Frankston, Sandringham generally removed from the loop.
5. duplication Keon Park-Epping (and extension to South Morang)
6. 50% of train fleet is new in that time
7. level crossings: Taylors Road, Kings Road, Springvale Road, Middlebrough Road, Footscray Road (freight), Kororoir Creek Road, Anderson Road (x2) and Springvale Road and Mitcham/Rooks (upcoming), ie. more in the last 10 years than the previous 30 years. and probably more in the next 10 years than the last 10 years.
8. Abandonment of Dandenong 3rd track (good thing as it was a pointless proejct and shows some maturity in the planning at DOT)
9. Craigieburn, Westall, Newport Stabling/Maintenance Yard upgrades (allowing greater sectorisation of the network and increased availability of trains).
10. Regional Rail Link
11. Planning for Melbourne Metro (whether you like it or not)

most of those projects can be directly inter-linked in terms of sectorisation and simpler operation of the network in a 'metro style' (lets call it RER) system.

obviously some misses in their too...
Myki, Southern Cross Station, Westall (but even the misses have there positives and will probably be viewed favourably in the longer term).

The strategy is working too... have you noticed that patronage is up about 7% a year on average for the last 10 years? are you aware mode share is now ~14% not 10% (and tracking ahead of 2020/20 target from MOTC)? are you aware that the average age of kids first getting their license is increasing as more use PT for longer? noted the growth in off peak travel? noted Smartbus and route 401, 601 bringing different riders to buses? etc...

You talk about the value of spending $50 billion and getting to 20% mode share but fail to see the value in the 'free' existing 14% -- throw away the legacy system and work out where those 250 million trips will go... Further what about the 500 million trips that will be on the existing tracks/stations in 10 years through simple ridership growth???


I'd enjoy seeing your $50 billion for a new fantasy rail network that would be enoguh to build you about 50km of track with 50 stations (not the ~400km of legacy lines with 212 stations)


As I said NSWP - for between $1-2 billion you can get 25,000pph on the Dandenong line with no level crossings and modern signalling/power systems. Your alternative in the same ballpark price range to that 'legacy' project would probably be enough to get a 3km long toy railway between Chadstone and Caulfield.


this is the real world of infrastructure project construction, not some little fantasy where a benign dictatorship allows you to build an elevated train line down Sydney Road with no thought to direct amenity impacts... or where you'd just close a line for 12 months and completely rebuild it (bus replacements would eb rather expensive I imagine)... or where you just force developers/landowners (eg. Chadstone) to build a station for you (or give up land for a station) or any other alternative that you/Paul Mees and others think might make these projects cheaper/better/faster delivered etc.

JPro I don't believe the tide has turned. What has changed in DoT? I can't see the evidence. Lord Jim is still there. Vicroads edifice alive and well. I'm glad the back to basics approach is starting to pay dividends.

But where to from here?

How will we get to 8 million? Sweat the assets further.

You haven't told me how we're going to fix the problems I listed.

I would never advocate 'throwing away' the legacy system.

But you do need to break with it at some point, and stop limiting your thinking to what it can deliver.

Why are you so resistant to the idea of a conventional metro?

Combined with some rational urban densification, Melbourne will have the land use and population density around a 10km radius of the CBD that many typical northern hemisphere cities have, and which are served by mass transit railways.

What will DoT do about the Upfield line and 19 tram? You can't keep adding more motorists to Sydney Rd and the cross roads, the Upfield line performance won't improve and the 19 tram will grind to a halt.

The Tulla is full. There is no Merri Creek freeway, and won't be one. Any new east-west freeway will be tolled, and of no interest to Brunswick/Coburg residents.

There are no plans to do anything about it. This is a joke by global standards. You could redevelop the entire area, as other cities have done, and take advantage of that to build an underground railway, and get rid of the trams. You could even leave the existing Upfield line running while you do it. Seen in Brussels for example.

Many of your numbered points I agree are worthwhile. But I take this for granted. Nothing to give anyone any credit over.

If I were to be swayed into thinking DoT was doing a good job, I need an explanation for the last 5 decades about why they did such a frigging awful job in that time, and what they did to change.

And you've helpfully damned their level crossing record for me.

Take Campbelltown or Penrith. Very similar topologically to Pakenham. Major cross road after major cross road, all grade separated during the 1970s and 80s. One after another. Local shopping centre? Flatten it. Houses? Resume them.

You don't need a benign dictatorship, you need a strong democracy. Pollie has a platform, gets elected comfortably, implements platform, deals with inevitable opponents with their mandate.

You don't have a strong democracy, but a weak one. Benign dictatorship looks attractive when you can't reinvigorate your weak democracy. I'd rather have a strong democracy though.

[John_Proctor]

here we go again... sins of the past.

and knowing a lot of people who work at VicRoads I can tell you they wouldn't be saying its alive and well... dieing organisation like the entire public service with no money being spent on roads at hte moment (blackspot programs, outer metro duplications etc all basically slowed to a halt... only things happening are M80, Dingley, Pen Link and planning for East-West and the grade separations).

re: "what happens after sweating the asset further"... good way to neglect the $4 billion being spent on RRL or the planning for Melbourne Metro which would be the next $5 billion project.

could probably sweat hte asset to double current patronage (or more)... and as you well know a line like Melbourne Metro should be able to carry 100 million+ by itself a year. (i.e. 50% of current patronage more or less)

Melbourne @8 million will require more tunnel(s) probably which may well be something like Newport-Doncaster 'metro' line, melbourne @8 million will also probably require Rowville/Melbourne Airport and others.

But aside from teh general principle of these lines it is only worth getting into them once someone can fund Melbourne Metro "1".

[MelbourneOnTheRise]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/cit...-1226325313003

The fucking mega-retard otherwise known as Treasurer Kim Wells has announced the East West freeway is the number 1 infrastructure project for the state and will be included in this year's budget. The stupidity of funding this (with a laughably negative cost benefit analysis) before desperately needed PT projects which would return a hundred fold what any freeway could is just unbelievable. I mean I love the planning minister, but Wells and Baillieu have got to go. They're just utterly incompetent idiots.

[Yardmaster]

Originally Posted by MelbourneOnTheRise

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/cit...-1226325313003

The fucking mega-retard otherwise known as Treasurer Kim Wells has announced the East West freeway is the number 1 infrastructure project for the state and will be included in this year's budget. The stupidity of funding this (with a laughably negative cost benefit analysis) before desperately needed PT projects which would return a hundred fold what any freeway could is just unbelievable. I mean I love the planning minister, but Wells and Baillieu have got to go. They're just utterly incompetent idiots.

Why would you be surprised?

[John_Proctor]

the only reason I can see for this to be getting bumped up the list is because it will be tolled and therefore largely (wholly?) privately funded.

but as you say MOTR is seems bizarre that a government efffectively elected on a 'fixing public transport' platform (for its transport policy) is now proposing to build roads.

hopefully any budgetry support for East-West Link is matched by budgetry support for Melbourne Metro...

[MelbourneOnTheRise]

JP, fingers crossed for Metro funding this budget. Its been shovel ready for 2-3 years already, so there's no excuse really.

This is just an outrageous, tawdry disgrace of the election promises they made.

I think they've overestimated the popularity of the freeway too, because even the conservative readership of the HUN in the above article voted 77% against building the freeway compared to only 23% for it.

This is the kind of project at the kind of time that has the potential to dramatically alter the future development of Melbourne. Do we continue building freeway after freeway, inducing ever greater congestion and car dependency with the fundamental triple bottom line failure that goes hand in hand with it, or do we react accordingly to the patronage boom over the last decade and invest in radical PT network expansion?

Yes PT costs money, but it always amazes me when governments like this one magically produce the billions needed for a freeway when they've been dead quiet when asked about PT funding for years. An absolute disgrace. This project must be condemned and stopped.

I'm somewhat torn now, I had intended to vote for the Libs in 14 because of Guy's plans to expand the CCZ etc But in terms of transport and job creation and the economy, they're just a never ending story of one disaster after another, and without a change in leadership (ie the scalps of Baillieu and Wells) eg Kennett or at least people who served his cabinet, I don't see how its going to get any better.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

Originally Posted by MelbourneOnTheRise

JP, fingers crossed for Metro funding this budget. Its been shovel ready for 2-3 years already, so there's no excuse really.

This is just an outrageous, tawdry disgrace of the election promises they made.

I think they've overestimated the popularity of the freeway too, because even the conservative readership of the HUN in the above article voted 77% against building the freeway compared to only 23% for it.

This is the kind of project at the kind of time that has the potential to dramatically alter the future development of Melbourne. Do we continue building freeway after freeway, inducing ever greater congestion and car dependency with the fundamental triple bottom line failure that goes hand in hand with it, or do we react accordingly to the patronage boom over the last decade and invest in radical PT network expansion?

Yes PT costs money, but it always amazes me when governments like this one magically produce the billions needed for a freeway when they've been dead quiet when asked about PT funding for years. An absolute disgrace. This project must be condemned and stopped.

I'm somewhat torn now, I had intended to vote for the Libs in 14 because of Guy's plans to expand the CCZ etc But in terms of transport and job creation and the economy, they're just a never ending story of one disaster after another, and without a change in leadership (ie the scalps of Baillieu and Wells) eg Kennett or at least people who served his cabinet, I don't see how its going to get any better.

Then vote green.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

The problem is too, the freeway will be shown on berc bids as having taken some patronage from the eddingtunnel, weakening its case.

At the end of the day, i dont know why these freeways weren't built in the 50s and 60s so that they could be completely full and discredited by now. And we could get on with building a proper solution, like so many other cities.

[MelbourneOnTheRise]

Originally Posted by NoshowwithoutPunch

Then vote green.

Pithy as always...I actually prefer the Greens on a number of policy areas but doubt the hype, at least at the state level given their failure to win a single new seat in 10.

[Dockside]

And whats the bet that the ''east/west'' freeway by Eddington will end up being dumbed down just for the eastern suburbs to have direct access to the Airport. It wont end up duplicating the Westgate bridge, let alone reach the Western Ring Rd.
Just anouther half arsed effert to shield this dud of a Premier in smoke and mirrors and fool the dumb masses.

[NoshowwithoutPunch]

Originally Posted by Dockside

And whats the bet that the ''east/west'' freeway by Eddington will end up being dumbed down just for the eastern suburbs to have direct access to the Airport. It wont end up duplicating the Westgate bridge, let alone reach the Western Ring Rd.
Just anouther half arsed effert to shield this dud of a Premier in smoke and mirrors and fool the dumb masses.

Freeways have a fundamental weakness over railways, they dont confine their traffic to their route. I find so many people who, if told a freeway between a and b is 10km long, 100kmh and no traffic lights, or a road between the same places is 1km shorter, will take the ordinary road.

You will see the same here. Unless the road is the linear shortest distance between the 2 points, you will get people not using it. You see them on sydney road rather than hume/ring road/tulla combo, because they cant handle the idea that the indirect freeway is quicker than sitting behind parked cars and 19 trams.

The most sensible way to get people from eastern freeway to the airport is not the royal park route, but onto the greensborough bypass and ring road via a new road through bulleen.