second NHL or NFL

[dennis911]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Shouldn't Toronto, as largest city in Canada, be supporting/building/nurturing Canadian culture instead of opting out of Canada at every opportunity? Torontonians are a little hard to take when it comes to sports. They don't support the 3 football teams they have now, and they want another one. That's rich!

Put a second NHL team in Winnipeg or Quebec City. Put the next NFL team in Los Angeles, then Riverside/San Bernardino, then Portland, then Sacramento, then Orlando, then Las Vegas, then Austin, then Virginia Beach, etc. They all deserve an NFL team well before Toronto.

Toronto = Worst support for football north of Mexico
Another football team for Toronto? When Hell Freezes Over!

Why? Where you against NBA expansion to Vancouver?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by dennis911

Why? Where you against NBA expansion to Vancouver?

Because that's the role of a nation's capital and/or largest city. These are places that the nation looks to in building and nurturing the domestic culture. Toronto should be the city that's central to building Canadian institutions, our sports, our culture, our music, etc.

That our primary city often does a complete 180 when it comes to these important nation building exercises is a slap in the face to the rest of the country.

We already have a domestic football league. Not only is the CFL the oldest football league on the continent, but gridiron is a sport that grew out of Canada. The 2 oldest professional football teams in north America are the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the Toronto Argonauts.

Instead of growing the Canadian league and taking pride in our own culture, Toronto has basically given the finger to the rest of Canada. Toronto's message to the rest of Canada is quite clear: Canada isn't good enough for Toronto and neither is Canadian culture.

The NBA in Vancouver? I wasn't against it, but it's rather sad that almost every nation in the western world has managed to build a domestic basketball league, yet Canada, the nation that gave the world basketball, has not.

Australia has a league. So does Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.

[koolio]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Because that's the role of a nation's capital and/or largest city. These are places that the nation looks to in building and nurturing the domestic culture. Toronto should be the city that's central to building Canadian institutions, our sports, our culture, our music, etc.

That our primary city often does a complete 180 when it comes to these important nation building exercises is a slap in the face to the rest of the country.

We already have a domestic football league. Not only is the CFL the oldest football league on the continent, but gridiron is a sport that grew out of Canada. The 2 oldest professional football teams in north America are the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the Toronto Argonauts.

Instead of growing the Canadian league and taking pride in our own culture, Toronto has basically given the finger to the rest of Canada. Toronto's message to the rest of Canada is quite clear: Canada isn't good enough for Toronto and neither is Canadian culture.

The NBA in Vancouver? I wasn't against it, but it's rather sad that almost every nation in the western world has managed to build a domestic basketball league, yet Canada, the nation that gave the world basketball, has not.

Australia has a league. So does Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.

I agree. Even though I don't think that Toronto has any obligation to the rest of Canada, it is quite pathetic that there has been a severe lack of vision in terms of sports in this country. Only now we have started to see the results of a turnaround in amateur sports but the state of professional sports in this country is still lagging years behind and unfortunately Toronto indeed needs to be blamed for lack of vision and/or a sense of unfounded entitlement and arrogance.

It just seems to me that everyone is too obsessed with making money in the short term that no one has enough vision to build something for the long term. It is very sad that the country has no domestic basketball league that can rival the national leagues from all across Europe. Same goes for baseball.

[isaidso]

Toronto isn't obligated to nation build, but we shouldn't turn around and be surprised when the rest of the country points the finger at us. Instead of being a leader, Toronto has often opted to jump ship.

We deserve a lot of the resentment and negativity that gets thrown our way by the rest of Canada. We do thumb our nose up at the rest of the country and are increasingly detached from it.

The CHL, CFL, and CIS are the only true national sport leagues in this country. Toronto ignores all 3 of them. All 3 of them could be so much bigger, stronger, and better if our biggest city Toronto got behind them. Toronto is where the nation's media and business is located so the abandonment by Toronto has been devastating.

None of these leagues have reached their true potential due to this situation, but our national football league looks likely to overcome this huge disadvantage. Quebec and the Prairies have filled the leadership void left by Toronto and look set to carry our football league forward. The Maritimes and the BC Interior represent the virgin territory yet to be developed. Left to Toronto, the development of football across Canada would simply not happen. Toronto would just let it die.

[sl64]

I would rather have an NFL team, but either would be cool.

Not wanting an NFL team because we already have a CFL team is like a city declining a pro baseball team because they already have a double-A team. Pure silliness. Both can coexist.

And a NFL team would do very well here. The tepid response to the Bills home games is due to a combination of the Bills sucking right now, and not many here really caring about the Bills. I've met more Steelers and Broncos fans in southern Ontario than Bills fans. But if there was a Torono franchise... pretty much everyone would switch over their allegiances.

People say that Toronto is just a hockey town and all that... rubbish. People were saying a basketball team here would be an abject failure and yet lo and behold the Raps are the 11th most valuable franchise in a 30-team league despite 15 years of mediocrity and dissapointment. When the Jays were winning titles, they were not only the top draw in baseball, they were actually setting attendance records. This is a great sports town, a bit frontrunning, maybe, but we have the ability to field top-10 revenue teams in every sport.

[allurban]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The NBA in Vancouver? I wasn't against it, but it's rather sad that almost every nation in the western world has managed to build a domestic basketball league, yet Canada, the nation that gave the world basketball, has not.

Australia has a league. So does Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.

Singapore has a basketball league, and so do Hong Kong and China as I recall.

Cheers, m

[allurban]

Originally Posted by isaidso

er...excuse my ignorance, but what is CIS? No clue in the logo.....

Cheers, m

[Bisonblight]

Canadian Interuniversity Sport. Did Toronto turn its back on them because York and UofT's football teams suck? Both universities have very good soccer teams and other teams that participate in the CIS. SFU's football team, on the other hand, abandoned the CIS for the NCAA.

[isaidso]

Are you suggesting that if York or Varsity won the Yates Cup, 20,000 fans would start showing up?

College Football: Varsity @ Mustangs

image hosted on flickr

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2197/...354dec0c50.jpg

The world's first documented gridiron football match was a game played at University College, University of Toronto on November 9, 1861, so it's not like Toronto got introduced to football recently. Football comes from Toronto. The game's very earliest roots trace back to the University of Toronto.

Great football programs take time, money, and effort. Varsity's football program (founded in 1877) is older than the University of Michigan's (founded in 1879). Back in the day, these 2 schools had comparable football programs and they even played each other. Over decades of work, the University of Michigan built a football powerhouse, the University of Toronto didn't make a similar effort. The resulting disparity is quite clear today.

Originally Posted by allurban

er...excuse my ignorance, but what is CIS? No clue in the logo.....

Cheers, m

No problem!

It stands for Canadian Inter-university Sport. It's the Canadian equivalent of NCAA, but is far less developed than its US counterpart. Popularity of collegiate sports were about equal in both countries from the 1870s to about the 1940s. After that, US collegiate sports continued to boom, while Canadian support for it plummeted.

In recent years, Canadian collegiate sports have grown substantially, but are growing from a very small base. There are only pockets of the country where collegiate sports are a big deal. College football and college basketball have long been dominant in the Maritimes while college football is booming all over Quebec, and at the University of Saskatchewan. Elsewhere, the sport continues to exist in obscurity.

Originally Posted by allurban

Singapore has a basketball league, and so do Hong Kong and China as I recall.

I assumed that China did, but had no idea that Singapore had a basketball league. What's it called and how many teams does it have?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by sl64

Not wanting an NFL team because we already have a CFL team is like a city declining a pro baseball team because they already have a double-A team. Pure silliness. Both can coexist.

Do you really need to insult this country's culture? This is our national football league; you're being really condescending. Do you go round telling Australians or Italians that you think their football league sucks?

image hosted on flickr

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/684...6c0404.jpg?v=0

The state of the Argonauts is directly related to the amount of support that Torontonians shower on it. A team and league are as 1st rate or as lacking in relation to the amount of support they receive. The CFL was once the pre-eminent football league on this continent. Neglect is what has damaged it.

Instead of starting all over again with a new league, why wouldn't you build your own team back up to where it was? The Argonauts have a richer history than any football team in the NFL. Don't you realize that? They were founded in 1873! That makes them the oldest professional football team in north America. Tossing the Argonauts aside is akin to New Yorkers tossing the Yankees aside. If this can happen to the Argonauts. One day it can happen to the Leafs.

It's pathetic really.


26th Grey Cup, December 10, 1938
It would be another 29 years till the United States contested their first 'Superbowl'. That generation pictured would be rolling over in their graves if they knew what had become of their team in this city.

Toronto Argonauts 30, Winnipeg Blue Bombers 7.

http://torontoist.com/attachments/to..._11_201938.jpg

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by sl64

This is a great sports town, a bit frontrunning, maybe, but we have the ability to field top-10 revenue teams in every sport.

Rubbish! Revenue isn't a measure of a great sports town, it's a result of having a huge population.

This is what a great sports town looks like: Columbus, Ohio


Melbourne is a great sports town. There are 11 football teams in that one city and they only have 4,000,000 people. Toronto can barely support one with 6,000,000 people. A game could be going on, but 99% of the city carries on like nothing is happening. Put 6-8 football teams, 3 baseball teams, 3 basketball teams, and 6-8 hockey teams in Toronto, and then I'll accept Toronto as a great sports town.

Toronto being labeled a great sports town is a colossal joke and everyone in Canada knows it. Every city over 5 million people has teams in all the major sports. That doesn't make a city a great sports town, it just makes it a big city. Melbourne, Moncton, Regina, Columbus, Green Bay; now those are great sports towns! Those people I posted above and below are populations that love their sports. Columbus is one third the size of Toronto, but gets 105,000 people out to watch students play football. Toronto???? Pffft!

Toronto can't even get 35,000 out to a pro football team. There are high schools in Texas that can outdraw Toronto in football.

Another city that beats Toronto hands down when it comes to support for their teams: Regina, they bleed green!

http://www.homorazzi.com/wp-content/...watermelon.jpg

[salvius]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Isn't the state of the Argonauts directly related to the amount of support that Torontonians shower on it? A team and league are as great or as lousy as the support they receive. The CFL was once the pre-eminent football league on this continent. Neglect is what has damaged it.

CFL could only have competed with the NFL back in the day when football was dramatically overshadowed by baseball in the US. It's not neglect -- people in the rest of the country seem to care about CFL, but the quality of players obviously isn't the same. Having Toronto suddenly care about CFL wouldn't change that.

And of course, if fan support led to team excellence the Leafs wouldn't be the richest hockey team in the world...

Originally Posted by isaidso

Instead of starting all over again with a new league, why wouldn't you build your own team back up to where it was? The Argonauts have a richer history than any football team in the NFL. They were founded in 1873! Don't you realize that? Tossing the Argonauts aside is akin to New Yorkers tossing the Yankees aside. If this can happen to the Argonauts. One day it can happen to the Leafs.

It's pathetic really.

No, it can't happen to the Leafs, at least not very easily. Football was never the dominant sport in Canada, as that was always hockey.

Why should it be a surprise that many in Toronto wish to see a NFL team? Although the analogy isn't perfect, if Manitoba Moose were founded in the mid 1870s (and AHL existed at that point), would it be shocking if Winnipeg still wanted the Jets in 2010?

The fact is, the Argos have lost traction in this city, and it's been that way for a long time. The suggestion to reform Argos as an alternative to lobbying for a NFL team just isn't realistic, as CFL just isn't the predominant league on the continent. Fixing the Argos isn't going to suddenly make CFL competitive with NFL either.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by salvius

CFL could only have competed with the NFL back in the day when football was dramatically overshadowed by baseball in the US. It's not neglect -- people in the rest of the country seem to care about CFL, but the quality of players obviously isn't the same. Having Toronto suddenly care about CFL wouldn't change that.

It's not neglect? Sure it's neglect. If 90,000 Torontonians were attending Argonauts games, 600,000 were watching at home, and $50 million in Argonaut merchandise were flying off the shelves each year, you can bet your bottom dollar that salaries offered by the Argonauts would rise.

This kind of support from the population would result in television audiences many times larger, and television contracts many times richer. The CFL can get back to a more even keel with teams south of the border, but it certainly can't with the type of defeatist attitude prevalent in Toronto when it comes to our domestic football league.

International television revenue for our league is surging each year and holds the key to closing the revenue gap between the 2 football leagues.

Originally Posted by salvius

And of course, if fan support led to team excellence the Leafs wouldn't be the richest hockey team in the world...

Fan support leads to increased revenues as was explained above. Team competitiveness is a by-product of talent paid for, good coaching, and a well run organization. Team excellence is a by product of being able to attract top front and back office talent.

Originally Posted by salvius

No, it can't happen to the Leafs, at least not very easily. Football was never the dominant sport in Canada, as that was always hockey.

I'll agree here. It will be harder for the Leafs to reach the same fate as the Argonauts, but not impossible. Football was never the dominant sport in Canada, but it certainly was a far bigger deal than it is today. It's suffered a precipitous drop. While the NHL may not get pushed aside by a rival hockey league, it may get pushed aside by soccer.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the Leafs won a Stanley Cup 40 years from now, and 90% of the city didn't care. The city's sporting choices are changing and the NHL has allowed other sports to fill the void that has resulted from a vastly under served hockey market.

Originally Posted by salvius

The fact is, the Argos have lost traction in this city, and it's been that way for a long time. The suggestion to reform Argos as an alternative to lobbying for a NFL team just isn't realistic, as CFL just isn't the predominant league on the continent. Fixing the Argos isn't going to suddenly make CFL competitive with NFL either.

The Argonauts have lost traction, but that doesn't mean we should throw in the towel. Why does the CFL have to regain its place as the dominant league on the continent for Torontonians to support it? As long as it's comparable and fans feel engaged/connected to their team. That's what's key, and is very fixable.

Loads of European squads get massive support operating in smaller/poorer leagues in the Netherlands, Scotland, Portugal, etc. The big city teams (PSV Eindhoven, Celtic, Porto, etc.) in these smaller leagues aren't all clamouring to get into the Premiership or Bundesliga. A big city club like the Argonauts should be able to prosper and compete in the CFL without clamouring to join the NFL. The Americans didn't do it either. They supported the NFL when they were playing catch up to the CFL.

Besides, The Argonauts can close the revenue gap substantially with certain NFL clubs. Look what tiny Regina has accomplished. They've generated millions from an absolutely minute market.

There's more to a league than player's salaries too. Money matters, but it shouldn't be the only quality that counts. Entertainment value in our league is comparable although production value is noticeably lower. Production value can easily be improved upon, it just takes some money and creativity.

Then there's engagement with the rest of the nation. We have 100 years of national competition in the CFL. No matter how cliché it is to say, sport does bind a people together. Do we want to sever those ties with the rest of Canada in favour of building ones with Pittsburgh, Miami, and Denver?

No matter what people say, an NFL team in Toronto will damage that cross national interaction and further alienate Toronto from the rest of the country. This is the last professional sports league this country has left. When was the last time we celebrated a Stanley Cup in Canada? 18 years ago! The beauty of our football league is that we crown a Canadian champion each and every year.


http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com...-argonauts.JPG

[Bisonblight]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Are you suggesting that if York or Varsity won the Yates Cup, 20,000 fans would start showing up?

Are you suggesting 20,000 fans show up to Mustang games? The stadium only seats 8,000, and it's never filled to capacity, eventhough Western is a huge football school.

I was suggesting that there's more to CIS than football. You suggested Toronto had abandoned CIS. You failed to specify you meant football only. I was asking for clarification.

Originally Posted by isaidso

The beauty of our football league is that we crown a Canadian champion each and every year.

Except, of course, in 1995 when the Baltimore Stallions won.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Bisonblight

Are you suggesting 20,000 fans show up to Mustang games? The stadium only seats 8,000, and it's never filled to capacity, eventhough Western is a huge football school.

Western is a big football school, but support at Western isn't what it used to be. Regardless, the Mustangs draw more than you think. I tabulated this stuff for cisfootball.org last season and their numbers in 2009 were as follows:

Game 1: 8,781
Game 2: 9,217
Game 3: 3,963 (I believe there was a snow storm that day)
Game 4: no data

TD Waterhouse Stadium
image hosted on flickr

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/...a257b85dd4.jpg

The larger stand holds 8,000. Judging by last year's attendance figures, this place should look pretty full, that 3rd game excluded.

UWO has about 30,000 students and 450,000 to draw from in London. The University of Toronto has around 74,000 students and close to 6,000,000 people to draw from in Toronto. I'm suggesting that Varsity should be able to draw 20,000 if their team made it to the Yates Cup. They're a far bigger school with a far bigger population base to draw from. There are a ton of U of T alumni in Toronto too.

Originally Posted by Bisonblight

I was suggesting that there's more to CIS than football. You suggested Toronto had abandoned CIS. You failed to specify you meant football only. I was asking for clarification.

Except, of course, in 1995 when the Baltimore Stallions won.

I haven't noticed significant Toronto support for any CIS sport, be it football, basketball, track, volleyball, soccer, etc.

Regarding Baltimore, you are quite correct. One year in the last century where we didn't have a Canadian champion? That's a far better situation than happens in soccer, baseball, hockey, or basketball. Outside of CIS and CHL that is.

Side note: Simon Fraser is back in the CIS after a stint in the US league.

[isaidso]

Bisonblight:

If you're interested, these are the top 10 college football attendances for home openers in 2009. Attendance followed by enrollment in brackets.

01. Laval: 15,607 (37,591)
02. Western: 8,781 (30,000)
03. Sherbrooke: 8,719 (35,000)
04. Queen's: 7,422 (20,566)
05. Saskatchewan: 6,053 (19,082)

06. McMaster: 5,678 (25,688)
07. St. Francis Xavier: 5,500 (4,875)
08. Ottawa: 5,120 (35,548)
09. Montréal: 4,649 (55,540)
10. Saint Mary's: 4,610 (7,281)

As you can see, support at Laval is head and shoulders above the rest and their program is only 15 years old. Sherbrooke's football program is even newer and they're already up past 8,000. The football program at Université de Montréal is new as well. Quebec is setting the pace in Canada.

Support at Nova Scotia schools has always been strong, but they suffer from tiny student populations and a small population base. Attendance at games in Nova Scotia often surpasses that of student enrollment.

It should also be noted that many Nova Scotia schools only count paid attendance. At Saint Mary's, attendance is much higher than the official numbers published. Entrance to varsity sports is part of student fees and they aren't generally counted in attendance figures. I've been at a SMU game when there were at least 7,000 people there and the attendance was listed at below 2,500.

[dennis911]

So we have to support the CFL just because we're the largesat city? I doubt you would be saying this if Montreal got that NFL team back in 1985.

What if Vancouver gets an NBA team again?(and they can, the Pacers considered moving there)

isaidso, you hold TO to a different standard, and that's fine. The rest of us want to see an NFL team here, and I guarantee the people will come for 8 sundays a year for a resonable price.

[dennis911]

Ottawa doesn't like the CFL either. CFL has not done well in Ontario as a whole.

[Bartolo]

Except in Hamilton

[dennis911]

Originally Posted by Bartolo

Except in Hamilton

Hamilton is a very good market. But lots of younger kids I know from the hammer don't even care about the CFL.