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Old February 2nd, 2012, 06:02 AM   #181
nagara373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
And then if you have such an insidiously small difference between gauges such as with 1435 mm in central and western Europe, China and North America v. 1520 mm in the former Soviet Union (85 mm difference), the 'three rail' dual gauge track itself (as shown in above posts) is impossible, making things much more expensive and problematic. Short of regauging one or the other, you'll need either four-rail track or two separate grades.

Mike
For North America, USA and Canada should be converted from 1435mm to 1676mm, and Mexico should retain 1435mm.

Proposed break of gauge 1520mm/1676mm (toward North America):
*Norilsk (Russia)
*Yakutsk (Russia)
*Okhotsk (Russia)
Proposed break of gauge 1676mm/1435mm (in North America):
*USA/Mexico border

Impossible 3-rail dual gauge:
*between 1435mm and 1520mm (85mm difference)
*between 1520mm and 1676mm (156mm difference)
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Last edited by nagara373; February 2nd, 2012 at 06:04 AM. Reason: spell
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 07:28 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nagara373 View Post
For North America, USA and Canada should be converted from 1435mm to 1676mm, and Mexico should retain 1435mm.
Why? Apart from making a few construction companies rich what would this bring?
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 07:31 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
And then if you have such an insidiously small difference between gauges such as with 1435 mm in central and western Europe, China and North America v. 1520 mm in the former Soviet Union (85 mm difference), the 'three rail' dual gauge track itself (as shown in above posts) is impossible, making things much more expensive and problematic. Short of regauging one or the other, you'll need either four-rail track or two separate grades.
That is true. Which means that regauging Russia to standard gauge is never going to happen, as unlike with Spain it's not possible to have mixed lines during the transition.
Interestingly there are plans to build a Russian gauge line all the way to Bratislava (to connect with the Danube). However, I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just fit lots of railcars with variable axle gauges. A version that can be retrofitted to existing stock exists.
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 07:43 AM   #184
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Some interesting news from Switzerland:
From 2016 onwards trains will run through from Montreux to Interlaken Ost. To be able to do this they will need to change from metre gauge to standard gauge. For this a variable gauge bogie has been developed, which will be retrofitted to existing MOB stock.

More info, including video simulations on how this is going to work are here:
http://www.goldenpass.ch/transgoldenpass_projet_en
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 01:07 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That is true. Which means that regauging Russia to standard gauge is never going to happen, as unlike with Spain it's not possible to have mixed lines during the transition.
Interestingly there are plans to build a Russian gauge line all the way to Bratislava (to connect with the Danube). However, I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just fit lots of railcars with variable axle gauges. A version that can be retrofitted to existing stock exists.
Variable gauge a too costly for freight service.
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 02:57 PM   #186
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Variable gauge a too costly for freight service.
Some railway operators seem to disagree with you...
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 09:18 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Some railway operators seem to disagree with you...
Link?
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 10:38 PM   #188
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Renfe operates dual-gauge freight services between Barcelonas's port and the Frech border.

For the operator it doesn't exit more cost in a dual-gauge operation, all the extra-costs are for the infraestructure owner.

For the owner the cost are so high, yes, but sometimes (only sometimes) it works if it is the only way to acces another railway network.
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 11:30 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
Renfe operates dual-gauge freight services between Barcelonas's port and the Frech border.

For the operator it doesn't exit more cost in a dual-gauge operation, all the extra-costs are for the infraestructure owner.

For the owner the cost are so high, yes, but sometimes (only sometimes) it works if it is the only way to acces another railway network.
But do they do it with transshipment from one railway car to another, or with variable-gauge bogies? Because I discussed the second option with K_, he stated that variable gauge bogies is "easier" than classic transshipment. I doubted that - variable gauge bogies are costly (both in terms of manufacturing and maintenance) even for passenger traffic (but not tragicaly), but for freight service the price is next to unbearable.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 12:08 AM   #190
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There are three types of services:
1) standard gauge trains from Barcelona to the European 1435 mm network (partly on a dual gauge line, partly on a new standard gauge line)
2) boogie or axle change like between 1435 and 1520
3) transshipment

See also (from north-west to south-east, the second line has lost its freight services some time ago):

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ndaye-irun.php
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...r-de-carol.php
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ns_cerbere.php

The hope is to convert all 1668 mm gauge lines to standard gauge. Most of Spanish (and Portuguese) broad gauge lines have a very low traffic (less than ~20 trains a day, a few more on double track lines) so it should not be a problem.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 02:04 AM   #191
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In the long term the solution in Spain will be the chage to Standard gauge, I really doubt it for Russia, India or South-East Asia, Spain has a mixed Standard ( High Speed- Mixed ) gauge and the iberian gauge, so the change is plausible, the solutión for these countries is a new cheap design of avariable gauge 1520-1435 mm bogie, that could be fitted in the most part of vagons existing today. There is an example,the cargo link between, Spain and Europe is carried out in a big part by Tranfesa, they work for the bigest car makers in Spain, Ford, Renault, GM Opel and Citröen, and a lot of chemical and minning firms. Here is the link: http://www.transfesa.es/en_tranporteFerroviario.htm
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 09:59 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_
But do they do it with transshipment from one railway car to another, or with variable-gauge bogies? Because I discussed the second option with K_, he stated that variable gauge bogies is "easier" than classic transshipment. I doubted that - variable gauge bogies are costly (both in terms of manufacturing and maintenance) even for passenger traffic (but not tragicaly), but for freight service the price is next to unbearable.
Sorry, they operate freight trains of both gauge in the same line but with a three rail track. That's why I said that the cost for the operator aren't higher.

Freight variable bogies has been tested by Renfe but not comercially used.

Also (and it's widely used) it exits the axels changing, that is a half-way solution.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 02:02 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elianzoom View Post
... the solutión for these countries is a new cheap design of avariable gauge 1520-1435 mm bogie, that could be fitted in the most part of vagons existing today.
Such a bogie exists with the SUW-2000 system, and the compatible DB Rafil system. PKP did some tests with the SUW-2000 system and according to this document:
http://www.sirts.pl/images/pliki/08_UIC_Kanclerz.pdf
The costs of operating guage changing freight trains would be lower than with transhipments.

So the railway operators do seem to be interested in going this route.
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Old February 3rd, 2012, 09:14 PM   #194
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Yes but I´m referring to a more standar and cheaper one, develope and produce in mass scale by many countries, a single SUW 2000 bogie cost 115,000 Lt ($42,000), so this must be reduced. In pasanger traffics,Talgo has signed an agreement to develope a train to link Moscow with Berlin- Paris cutting down the duration of the trip significantly. There are technology for this in passangers traffic, but for the break of gauge in China-Kazhagistan line , or China-Russia line, there must be something as I said produced in mass scale and quite cheap to be plausible.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There are three types of services:
1) standard gauge trains from Barcelona to the European 1435 mm network (partly on a dual gauge line, partly on a new standard gauge line)
2) boogie or axle change like between 1435 and 1520
3) transshipment

See also (from north-west to south-east, the second line has lost its freight services some time ago):

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ndaye-irun.php
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...r-de-carol.php
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ns_cerbere.php

The hope is to convert all 1668 mm gauge lines to standard gauge. Most of Spanish (and Portuguese) broad gauge lines have a very low traffic (less than ~20 trains a day, a few more on double track lines) so it should not be a problem.



Most of the OPEN portuguese lines have way over 20 tpd.

In fact they are some of the most heavilly used single track routes in europe.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #196
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I didn't know about Portugal, but for example the Madrid-Avila-Burgos-France line usually has less than 80 tpd, which could be handled even with one track converted to standard gauge.

I think that converting all railways to standard gauge (maybe except Cercanías/suburban railways) should be the first priority for Spanish and Portuguese railways.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #197
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Why? Do you think the Japanese lines ought to be converted too?
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #198
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Japan is an island, while Spain and Portugal are linked with the rest of Europe by land. In addition a lot of Spanish railways are quite empty, so closing them to allow regauging would not cause problems to passenger and freight traffic (as there isn't that much).
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Old February 18th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #199
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True, but I guess there isn't that much rail freight traffic between Spain, Portugal and the rest of Europe to justify full conversion. Probably it would be enought to build mixed gauge rails in Catalonia and the Basque Country to cover a very large share of the interregional rail cargo.
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Old February 18th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #200
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But the problem is: There isn't enough traffic to justify full converstion, or there isn't enough because 'cause it doesn't exist full conversion?

Also the international gauge network is so extensive in Spain and in the more frecuented lines, so the problem nowadays with the gauge is less for the border crossing than for the spanish internal routes.
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