The Official Religion Thread

[Jack Rabbit Slim]

Originally Posted by wjfox

In my vomit-induced state that cheered me up a bit.

But that guy is a pure ameteur, an absolute ameteur in the realm of religious hocus pocus full-on nuttiness when compared to the pastor in this video...in fact pretty much everyone present in this video (and no, it aint a fake, as much as you may wish it to be!)

[Sister Anne]

I don't think it really counts as 'going to church' if it's a wedding. You have to do the Sunday morning fire and brimstone stuff for that.

[CharlieP]

It's my cousin's wedding. Out of respect to him and his family, I shall refrain from heckling the vicar and attempting to deprogram the congregation. Instead, I shall dress appropriately, stand up and sit down at the right times, and even sing along to all the songs. Am I being cowardly, hypocritical or mature?

[CharlieP]

Originally Posted by Sister Anne

I don't think it really counts as 'going to church' if it's a wedding. You have to do the Sunday morning fire and brimstone stuff for that.

I've probably been to church/chapel on a Sunday close to a thousand times. It just didn't stick.

[Sister Anne]

Whenever I'm obliged to go (and it's usually to the catholic ones) I sit there and repeat that Octave Mirbeau quote from the back of the Manic Street Preachers third album over and over in my head. You should try it:

“You're obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you find absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social conventions you despise, condemn, and know lack all foundation. It is that permanent contradiction between your ideas and desires and all the dead formalities and vain pretenses of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled and unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain and check the free play of your powers. That's the poisoned and mortal wound of the civilized world.”

[alonzo-ny]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

It's my cousin's wedding. Out of respect to him and his family, I shall refrain from heckling the vicar and attempting to deprogram the congregation. Instead, I shall dress appropriately, stand up and sit down at the right times, and even sing along to all the songs. Am I being cowardly, hypocritical or mature?

Don't bother singing. That is a bit too far. When I am in church I respectfully do everything but I won't sing or bow my head or anything like that. Sort of a silent protest.

[CharlieP]

Oops, I thought I'd typed "...might even sing along...". It will probably depend on who I sit next to - if it's my third sister, we'll stand there in defiant silence, but if it's my parents, well, I don't think it would be the most appropriate time to "come out" to them...

[CharlieP]

Originally Posted by Sister Anne

Whenever I'm obliged to go (and it's usually to the catholic ones)...

I've been to a Catholic church once, to a wedding, and it was quite the experience. Years of programming have only taught me what to do at C of E services, where I could fool anybody by parroting the right responses at the right time, so I was like a fish out of water in a room full of Holy Rollers. I was standing when I should have been sitting, sitting when I should have been kneeling, and gawping like a loon when the entire congregation (including my date, a lapsed Catholic) burst into well-drilled Pavlovian responses at frequent intervals following a trigger phrase from the bloke in a dress at the front. After a while I started looking round the room to occupy myself during all that carrying-on, and spotted another bloke who clearly found it as alien as me. I started trying to communicate with him through the medium of raised eyebrows and nods of the head, but was busted by an old granny who gave me the kind of dirty look that made me realise I was clearly going straight to Protestant Atheist Hell.

It was Fun.

[Sister Anne]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

I've been to a Catholic church once, to a wedding, and it was quite the experience. Years of programming have only taught me what to do at C of E services, where I could fool anybody by parroting the right responses at the right time, so I was like a fish out of water in a room full of Holy Rollers. I was standing when I should have been sitting, sitting when I should have been kneeling, and gawping like a loon when the entire congregation (including my date, a lapsed Catholic) burst into well-drilled Pavlovian responses at frequent intervals following a trigger phrase from the bloke in a dress at the front. After a while I started looking round the room to occupy myself during all that carrying-on, and spotted another bloke who clearly found it as alien as me. I started trying to communicate with him through the medium of raised eyebrows and nods of the head, but was busted by an old granny who gave me the kind of dirty look that made me realise I was clearly going straight to Protestant Atheist Hell.

It was Fun.

Heh. See, I think organised religion is too easy a target and find it a bit sixth form to just dismiss it all as nonsense but, equally, the Catholics don't make it easy for themselves. Last time I went it was a mass before a load of kids had their first holy communion (ie they were all about 7 or 8 or something) and the priest read out this great big rambling statement about child abuse. Didn't half ruin the mood, I can tell you. And I've been at Catholic weddings where, instead of making it a service of celebration, the priest spends half an hour telling the audience that they're all going to hell and that it's no use repenting. There wasn't exactly a queue of people signing up afterwards.

[mexico86]

Originally Posted by Sister Anne

...I think organised religion is too easy a target and find it a bit sixth form to just dismiss it all as nonsense but...

I guess it is such an easy target because it is so obviously a load of man-made falsehoods. But if you think it is nonsense there's no shame in coming out and saying it - ideas cannot be offended.

[Sister Anne]

But good things can come out of it, regardless of whether their beliefs are valid. The US government, for example, practically waged war against the catholic church in South America in the 80s and 90s as the church was one of the few groups to actually be speaking up against the US-backed genocide that was happening. The church was a force for good that helped support and raise awareness about people facing terrible atrocities.

Closer to home, the vast majority of charity and voluntary work that takes place in the UK is performed in association with faith-based organisations.

Faith and religion, in other words, can motivate people to do good. So just because you - and indeed I - might not believe in a god, it doesn't necessarily mean that all belief in it is a bad thing.

[mexico86]

Perhaps, but I've never heard of a good deed performed by a person of faith that could not have been done by a non-believer. Plus, the fact that some religious people do some good things is not an argument against denouncing religion as wrong.

[ross_the_man]

Originally Posted by Sister Anne

But good things can come out of it, regardless of whether their beliefs are valid. The US government, for example, practically waged war against the catholic church in South America in the 80s and 90s as the church was one of the few groups to actually be speaking up against the US-backed genocide that was happening. The church was a force for good that helped support and raise awareness about people facing terrible atrocities.

Closer to home, the vast majority of charity and voluntary work that takes place in the UK is performed in association with faith-based organisations.

Faith and religion, in other words, can motivate people to do good. So just because you - and indeed I - might not believe in a god, it doesn't necessarily mean that all belief in it is a bad thing.

I don't really consider "You read the Bible, then we give you food" a good deed.

[gothicform]

Originally Posted by Sister Anne

Whenever I'm obliged to go (and it's usually to the catholic ones) I sit there and repeat that Octave Mirbeau quote from the back of the Manic Street Preachers third album over and over in my head. You should try it:

“You're obliged to pretend respect for people and institutions you find absurd. You live attached in a cowardly fashion to moral and social conventions you despise, condemn, and know lack all foundation. It is that permanent contradiction between your ideas and desires and all the dead formalities and vain pretenses of your civilization which makes you sad, troubled and unbalanced. In that intolerable conflict you lose all joy of life and feeling of personality, because at every moment they suppress and restrain and check the free play of your powers. That's the poisoned and mortal wound of the civilized world.”

good book too, if you have read it

[Marathaman]

Organized religion is an awesome, powerful thing.

[wjfox]

[mexico86]

she estimates she's given a quarter of a million to the church over her lifetime ... wtf?????!!@111

[Sister Anne]

Originally Posted by gothicform

good book too, if you have read it

Indeed. Bit pervy though, innit? (Although not nearly so pervy as 'Our Lady Of The Flowers' by Jean Genet, which I read on account of it being mentioned in song by Primal Scream. It's not an easy read.)

[Marathaman]

IMO, you can fight religion all you want, but you can't change the human brain (well atleast not in the near future). If there's no God-based religion, then we always find some other idea or ideology to believe in without adequate proof, just because it makes us feel better about ourselves in some way or gives us hope or makes us a part of some community/family.

If everybody started demanding conclusive proof for each and every one of their principles or beliefs, they would go crazy and/or unable to function on a daily basis.

[Sister Anne]

True enough - people's belief system is up to them and it's only an issue when it veers into extremism, which has been a real issue over the past 20 years, particularly in America. Extremist christians never used to have much of a voice in the States, but now they're an incredibly powerful lobby and I think they've been allowed to develop because it suits the interests of existing power structures to have people talk about gay rights or abortion because it isn't remotely threatening to them. CEOs aren't that bothered about gay rights one way or another, but they'd much rather the population be discussing that or Darwinism than, say, changes to the tax system or healthcare reform. It's a welcome distraction for them.

It's also kind of inevitable that people would become more relgious as they've become poorer, which is what's happened in the States since the 80s.