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Old March 2nd, 2012, 09:19 AM   #81
Letniczka
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Originally Posted by N23SK View Post
...while handball clubs when they start to show poor results, the fans are leaving and focusing on another sport.
This is simply rubbish!
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 11:31 AM   #82
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Speaking of attendances at sports games in Europe, I was amazed when I saw how many spectators there were at games at the European Water Polo Championship in Eindhoven. The very first game (Macedonia vs. Turkey) had an attendance of only 150 and the final only had 2,300.
It's Water Polo! what did you expect?
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 11:33 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Letniczka View Post
This is simply rubbish!
Its not really.. did you see half-empty arenas?

Only Bundesliga clubs are exception..
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 11:46 AM   #84
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Ice hockey and basketball are actively doing on promotion and expansion of their markets, fan bases and general image of the sport. That's why they are bigger and stronger than handball in every single aspect at this momemnt. One average player in top leagues in basketball and ice hockey earns more than entire top notch handball team.

EHF doesn't help the clubs in any way.. there's no mutual sponsors, there's no mutual marketing.. they are stuck in the past and sadly i don't see it changing anytime soon. Same old people that live from the handball and not for it.

TV rights are especially sad part. Income is basically non existent. Clubs and EHF even pay the TV stations to broadcast their matches and not the other way around. On other hand major leagues in basketball and ice hockey get multi-country deals worth a lot.

Its all done so.. amateur..

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1099893

Basketball numbers are around the same i'd guess.. maybe a bit lower.. but still.. very high.

Handball can only dream of such numbers

It kills me to see that only international competitions are really well done and organized.

CL final four in handball will again go unnoticed.. apart from the fans of the teams that play on it.

On other hand Euroleague final 4 will have world wide broadcast.. turned into few days long event in the host city.

Yup it kills me too! I don't get the piunt of always having the final 4 in Cologne except for the simple fact that Cologne s willing to host it!

However I would not compare EHL to national leagues! I would gladly compare them to UEFA, ULEB and the sort! but comparing them to strong national leagues is somewhat unfair! Today other than Football no sport is able to get a real money deal for Euro wide competition!

ULEB's Euroleague is no exception, the contract will be renegotiated soon! Hockey EHL is dead for all intent and purposes!
Volleyball CL is what it is, a non factor!
Rugby H Cup is not expanding they just rely on France and England to field 6 teams each and 2/3 a piece from Ireland, scotland, Wales and Italy, The competition is strong because the national championships are stronger! The TV deal will be good enough cause frenchmen and englishmen enjoy their rugby!

Yes it sucks for players not to make big money! But until recently I could go to games for a small 8/10 euros to a handball game and I had to pay a lot more to watch some ok Basketball game... As a handball fan I quite like that! But I join you in saying that EHL is still really amateurish in their approach! The league is just getting into sponsoring (with brands like Velux and Jack & Jones) they are developping their marketing but not fast and strong enough. But there's only so much they can do in a market that is heavily dominated by football, Basketball, and Hockey (in the north and east at least)

If you look at air day you'll notice that
Monday goes free,
Tuesday and Wednesday and for UEFA CL,
Wednesday and Thursday are for ULEB EL (and ULEB wants to play on thursdays and fridays starting next year to avoid direct competition with UEFA)
Saturday and Sunday are fro EHL CL (good except that they have to face all football champioships which happen to have their game days on the said week ends... Ouch!!!)

For sportsfans there is no way around it, there are days you have to pick, it's either bball or hball or Fball or Hball!

Finally country wins speak volumes! in France, The game is rising cause the national team has been on a roll until the latest euro during which they got their asses whopped! In Germany the game is strong cause they always have at least two team in the final four, In Spain the sport is still strong'ish' cause Barcelona is always there! Denmark and Poland are going back to being really strong national teams and leagues! But Croatia and Serbia seem to be in disaffection due to teams weakness!


ULEB EuroLeague! But comparing EHF to Russian KHL and their mega TV contract is just ridiculous! It's Russia national market number one sport! their money level is almost NHL like! You can compare pretty much all National leagues and you'll see that they generate more money than the corresponding euroleague budget except in the one or two dominating contries with one exception... Football!


I have to go I'll edit this post later

Last edited by Neda Say; March 2nd, 2012 at 05:01 PM.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 12:20 PM   #85
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Its not really.. did you see half-empty arenas?

Only Bundesliga clubs are exception..

Average attendance of EHF CL is well over 4000
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 02:51 PM   #86
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This is simply rubbish!
It's not, if you continuously watch EHF CL. Partizan had awful attendance. Constanta same. Look St. Petersburg, maybe 80% of the hall was empty. There were times when good teams who performed not so well that season had only 1-1.5k. And that 4000 average attendance is just because of RK Zagreb, THW Kiel, maybe Copenhagen, RK Metalurg and maybe Montpelier.
I have two examples on this topic. The first one about my favorite handball team, Vardar.
First match - 4500
Second match - 4000 (it was against THW Kiel)
Third match - 2000
Forth match - 2000 (Barcelona, but due to change arenas, the hall was sold out)
Fifth match - 2900
The team had only one win and one draw. I hope you understand me why I said that poor results lead to poor attendance. Btw, it was the 2009/2010 season.
Second example of how ridiculous is EHF. At the start of the season, they told as that we can play only in the biggest sport hall in the city. And we played. The capacity is around 6-6.5k, for basketball even 8k. Never mind. But, when Barcelona calls EHF and told them that they prefer to play on Thursday, as a quick journey to Skopje, and because the biggest hall was busy, EHF said, ok it's no problem, you can play whenever you want and the call Vardar and told him to play in 2k hall, which previously wasn't good enough. But because it's Barca, and because they can to play whenever they want, Vardar changed the location and time. It's like Barca their match against some UEFA CL club want to play on Monday, because they think it's not so important journey and also to get some free time for the next match. That's that corrupt organization call EHF. And when we told that we want to continue play in the small hall, because as you can see the attendance went down, they said NO, it's impossible to play in that hall since we made deal at the beginning of the season. But when Barca calls, you can play even in school hall.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 02:32 AM   #87
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I don't want to show me as anti-handball fan. I'm big fan of this sport, but I'm totally disappointed that there's not any progress in the last 5-7 years, since EHF tried to copy UEFA and ULEB. In my country, almost every year we have CL club. It is Vardar or nowadays Metalurg. The organization is still same. Not the clubs organization. I mean EHF organization. They still don't carry if matches are broadcast with 4-5 cameras, they don't matter about the tickets, they still have pretty poor site (visit euroleague.net so you can compare with the handball situation), they are still giving final four organization to the city of Cologne and etc. You can visit the sites of Marca and AS, two main sport daily papers in Spain and see how many handball stories and reports they have. It's so poor.
I understand you. You're trying to show me that the situation is going better. But it's not as it seems. Teams cut their budgets in every sport, but that's not argument why in handball the situation is still status quo. For me, handball is only entertainment fun for people from small cities in Germany, France, Spain and that only in small Balkan countries is present in the huge cities, in the capital cities.
Also I know about the Atletico Madrid situation. But that's not the reason why in million+ city there are only 2k. Local basketball club Estudiantes has 9-10k on every game.
Am glad that Poland is making strong teams, but in my opinion in the next 10 years handball will still be played in several countries like Iceland, Germany, Spain, Slovakia, France, Croatia, Slovenia, Serbia, Macedonia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Hungary, Czech Republic and maybe Bosnia, Montenegro, Austria and Russia.
Now spanish handball, like many other sports, are really strugling becasuse os the crisis. Many teams were used as "propaganda" from councils and regional governments, and a huge (if not the most) part of ASOBAL-team budgets came from public money trough sponsorship, plus the easy conditions on loans and sports facilities use.
That easy money inflated the salaries and bugets over they could logically bear by their own means.

Now there is always talks about teams not paying the players, and clubs that cannot afford keeping on the competition.

Add to that bubble the fact that handball received here a great amount of media interest becasuse one of the King's daughter married a Barša's player (Urdangarin). Handball was the new cool sport to support by sponsors and media who wanted to "favour the powerful".

There has benn always some interest in handball, but not to the point to have great budgets. And not very much in Madrid, that, like most big cities sport world is absolutley football-centric (in the golden years, Atletico handball played in original Estudiantes court, Magari˝os, wich holds only 3000), wich fits even nowadays the interest of handball in Madrid better than Vistalegre (15000). A full Vistalegre for match against Barcelona, can easily be sold as a good shape for handball in Spain, but at long term, it can lead to a mirage and missinterpretation of the real state of spanish handball, that didn't lie on huge budgets to sign stars, but the academy players.

Also the absolute dominance of Baša and CiudadReal/Atletico makes interest decrease in public. This ASOBAL season championship could be and will be decided with only two matches: Atletico-Barša and Barša-Atletico. (Barša leads only because Atletico lose one match; guess agaisnt who?) The rest of teams aspire as much as the third place.

Back to the topic of the thread, it's a pity new Atletico doesn't play in Madrid Arena, is smaller than Vistalegre but not too much (9000) and a perfect retangular "bowl" configuration. Actually both Real Madrid an Estudiantes chose it as the best basket arena in the city. But the city wanted it to host concerts, congress... rather than regular sports events.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 09:57 AM   #88
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Average attendance of EHF CL is well over 4000
There are 7 ice hockey leagues with better average attendance in Europe

For basketball i can't find data but i'm pretty sure its also something like that.

Here's one for better days

Its still a great game.. regardless of all faults..

Slovenian and Hungarian clubs will join SEHA league next year.. there's rumour that Polish clubs might as well. That would be hell of a league that would have great attendance and that could challenge ASOBAL and Bundesliga.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 04:26 PM   #89
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Slovenian and Hungarian clubs will join SEHA league next year.. .
There are some ideas of joining the league, but even those come from the directors of the clubs. Players, clubs and people in general don't really like the idea of joining the SEHA league. If clubs would join league it would be a boost for the popularization of the sport, but physically and financially it would mean a downfall for all our clubs.

Slovenian first league is ranked 6th strongest in Europe by the EHF (http://www.eurohandball.com/article/14058) and it's come a long way in past years working with youngsters etc. If one or two of top clubs would join, it would mean that they would only play final games in domestic championship and other clubs, that aren't so far away with quality would loose those crucial games with top clubs in the country.

Also members of the national team are against joining SEHA http://www.sport-tv.si/d133997/Rokom...ti_kot_za.html (Use GTranslate)

I believe I speak for majority of handball fans in Slovenia, when I say that we do not want to join SEHA league at the moment.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 05:32 PM   #90
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They won't really have a choice.. being 6th league in Europe doesn't mean much when only 2 leagues look serious enough

Its 2 club league.. and even those two clubs.. especially Celje have absolutely no one watching the home league.

Its just not possible to run a club on high level in long run like that.. as Celje's case proved. They are nowhere in last few years.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 07:24 PM   #91
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There are some ideas of joining the league, but even those come from the directors of the clubs. Players, clubs and people in general don't really like the idea of joining the SEHA league. If clubs would join league it would be a boost for the popularization of the sport, but physically and financially it would mean a downfall for all our clubs.

Slovenian first league is ranked 6th strongest in Europe by the EHF (http://www.eurohandball.com/article/14058) and it's come a long way in past years working with youngsters etc. If one or two of top clubs would join, it would mean that they would only play final games in domestic championship and other clubs, that aren't so far away with quality would loose those crucial games with top clubs in the country.

Also members of the national team are against joining SEHA http://www.sport-tv.si/d133997/Rokom...ti_kot_za.html (Use GTranslate)

I believe I speak for majority of handball fans in Slovenia, when I say that we do not want to join SEHA league at the moment.
From one director, Pungartnik (Celje PL). He want SEHA league. Hungarians are waiting for our decision. And how many teams would SEHA league have in 2012/2012 if Slovenian and Hungarian teams join this league? I heard obout 4 Slovenian (Celje PL, Cimos Koper, Gorenje Velenje, Maribor) and 2 Hungarian (Pick Szeged and Veszprem).

It would be beter other new league, like EBEL in icehockey.
It would be Slovenian league with Hungarian teams + Zagreb, maybe Metalurg...

The best option woould be:
Clubs from Slovenia+Hungary+Poland. And then like in EBEL league the best clubs from Romania,Slovakia,Croatia...

Last edited by netgear67; March 3rd, 2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Old March 7th, 2012, 07:41 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by SpicyMcHaggis View Post
They won't really have a choice.. being 6th league in Europe doesn't mean much when only 2 leagues look serious enough

Its 2 club league.. and even those two clubs.. especially Celje have absolutely no one watching the home league.

Its just not possible to run a club on high level in long run like that.. as Celje's case proved. They are nowhere in last few years.
I'm sorry I have to disagree, but it does mean something if your league in ranked 6th in EU. If nothing, you have 2 clubs in CL + slovenian league is not really about just 2 clubs. Croatian league is about 1 or 2 clubs (Zagreb mostyl)
More or less all games have pretty good attendance.
In 99% of time, when I read your posts I agree with you, but sorry this time no

@netgear67 Yea I started writing something and then stoped. Started again, I lost my self and then that happend One director*

Here's another article with answers of some important people in Slovenian handball |SEHA, step back for Slovenian handball? http://translate.google.com/translat...alno_ligo.aspx
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Old March 9th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #93
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I agree with you Miran. Apart from more money for the big clubs due to marketing Slovenian club handball gains nothing by joining this league. The rest who would be left out would stagnate in the best scenario. At the moment each team can beat anyone in Slovenian championship, while its hard to say that the bottom six teams of the SEHA league would won much against the top six or even put up a good fight.

Sure the Slovenian league has some issues but most of handball fans south of Slo-Cro border (ex-Yugoslav countries) doesnt understand that the league is quite strong and I am certain that Zagreb (as the biggest and probably the best club in SEHA) would have a hack of a harder time winning Slovenian championship then winning SEHA trophy. Two thirds of the current SEHA league member clubs would, imo, struggle to qualify in the championship playoffs of the Slovenian league (top 6).

And another thing. Why on earth has Bosnia three clubs in this league (or Montenegro or Serbia both two for that matter) and in case Slovenia joins they would also have only three ? Apart from that the Slovenian handball officials arent satisfied how this league is being run (too amateur for their taste - games being cancelled for strange reasons, no tv broadcast, poor official website, weak officiating etc.). From the best Slovenian clubs only Celje is for the league (Maribor is so-so), while Gorenje (current top team) and Cimos are mostly against it. At least judging by comments from their officials. The officials from RZS (Slovenian Handball Association) are also against it at the moment and they wont allow Celje alone to participate in SEHA league on their own.

Current top 10 clubs from both leagues:
Gorenje* =< Zagreb*
Celje* > Metalurg*
Cimos* > Vardar
Trimo =< Tatran*
Maribor* >= Nexe
KrÜko = Borac
Izola > Lovćen
Ormo× > Metaloplastika
Ribnica > Izviđać
Krka >> Bosna

*Still active in EHF club competitions knock-out phases (Champions league has Round of 16 scheduled, while other cups are already in the Round of 8). It would not be all that surprising if three out of four Slovenian clubs still active in EHF competitions would reach the finals of their competitions (Cimos in CL has no chance).

The two Hungarian teams (Veszprem and Pick Szeged) said that they plan to join if Slovenian clubs join, but they are likely to join anyway. While, its highly unlikely that Polish teams will join anytime soon as their federation wont allow them to (their general league sponsor will revoke their contract if Kielce and Plock wont play in the regular season with their full squads).

On a personal note: I wouldnt mind if Slovenian championship in handball gets organized as the EBEL league in ice hockey. About eight Slovenian clubs joined by two or three Hungarian and two or three Croatian ones (even the top two Macedonian ones). Lets be realistic, though Serbia and Bosnia (even Montenegro) has some degree of handball tradition their clubs are two levels bellow the top Slo/Cro/Hun/Mac clubs and I doubt they will get better (priorities on other sports in those countries).
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Old March 9th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #94
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Can someone show a statistic about average attendance in the Slovenian championship?
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Old March 9th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #95
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I am not sure. I dont have the time to check them at the moment, but might post some numbers later in the day. Though the first division teams that play in the arena with over 2,000 seats are Celje (5,500), Maribor (3,500), Cimos (3,200) and Gorenje (2,500).

Generally important games between the top three clubs attract around 2,000 spectators on the avarage (sometimes less and sometimes more, like in the case of two rounds ago when Celje-Gorenje match was followed by 3,800 spectators - the record is 4,000 for the league). When top three clubs play in Maribor the attendance is on the avarage 1,500 for this season (again sometimes less, sometimes more).

Interestingly the highest number of supporters that watched Cimos on their home game during this season was not when they faced Celje or Gorenje, but against Izola (3,000). A team which didnt even qualify to the championship playoffs (top 6). I am not certain about the specific stats on the avarage capacity of other teams, but I believe that the numbers varies at around 1,000 seats. Those arenas are usually close to full, regardless the name of the visiting team.
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Old March 9th, 2012, 07:20 PM   #96
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1k? In which parallel universe? Whenever i see Celje league game on TV there's barely anyone in the hall. Just like in case of RK Zagreb..

Champions League crowds only..
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Old March 9th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #97
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Looking at this numbers, I believe that Slovenian teams will also benefit from SEHA league, because every week they will have strong matches against Vardar, Nexe, Metalurg, Zagreb, Slovenian rivals, Partizan from next season (they are far stronger than Red Star and Metaloplastika) and maybe against 2 Hungarian teams.
My view of ideal SEHA league:
1 team from Montenegro
2 teams from Macedonia
2 teams from Croatia
2 teams from Slovenia
2 teams from Hungary
2 teams from Serbia
1 team from Slovakia
+2 places from 2 qualifying groups (3rd teams from Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia and Hungary + 2nd from Montenegro and 3rd and 4th team from Slovenia, for example, 1 group 4 teams and one group 3 teams (here it would be two Slovenians + one from Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia or Hungary, just because it would not be fair to have 4 teams from Slo. In this way they can have maximum 3)).
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Old March 9th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #98
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1k? In which parallel universe? Whenever i see Celje league game on TV there's barely anyone in the hall. Just like in case of RK Zagreb..
1,000 is the avarage seating capacity (probably even slightly less than that) of the majority of teams (not counting previously mentioned Celje, Gorenje, Maribor and Cimos). Those teams has 400-1,000 spectators on their matches depending on the adversary (against top 3 teams the halls are usually close to full in most cases). Also, thats in the range of what is expected from them since the biggest town that has a club in this seasons Slovenian league is Maribor (just over 100,000), with Celje/Koper close to 50,000 and Velenje around 35,000. All the rest come from the towns with around 10,000 or even less inhabitants. Ljubljana doesnt have a club in first division + neither does Slovenj Gradec, a typical handball town with their hall of around 1,500 seats.
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Old March 9th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #99
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Looking at this numbers, I believe that Slovenian teams will also benefit from SEHA league, because every week they will have strong matches against Vardar, Nexe, Metalurg, Zagreb, Slovenian rivals, Partizan from next season (they are far stronger than Red Star and Metaloplastika) and maybe against 2 Hungarian teams.
My view of ideal SEHA league:
1 team from Montenegro
2 teams from Macedonia
2 teams from Croatia
2 teams from Slovenia
2 teams from Hungary
2 teams from Serbia
1 team from Slovakia
+2 places from 2 qualifying groups (3rd teams from Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia and Hungary + 2nd from Montenegro and 3rd and 4th team from Slovenia, for example, 1 group 4 teams and one group 3 teams (here it would be two Slovenians + one from Macedonia, Croatia, Serbia or Hungary, just because it would not be fair to have 4 teams from Slo. In this way they can have maximum 3)).
The question is which Slovenian teams, that is how many? Slovenian handball federation wont join this league unless there are at least four, possibly five, Slovenian clubs in the league (my opinion offcourse). Celje, Gorenje and Cimos without question and probably Maribor as fourth. You say it would not be fair that Slovenia would have four teams in this league, I (and most of Slovenian public I believe) say why would it be unfair? Does this league wants quality or quantity? If SEHA would follow your "ideal league concept" and offer two permanent spots to Slovenia, Slovenian federation and their club members wouldnt even sit behind the barganing table. In any case, even if your concept of 2+2 for Slovenia would be realized that would mean that two Slovenian teams would simply qualify each year, with being a major upset if one of them would fail to do so.

My ideal SEHA concept would be a league of 16 teams from:
4 teams from Slovenia (Gorenje, Celje, Cimos, Maribor)
2 teams from Hungary (Vezsprem, Pick Szeged)
2 teams from Croatia (Zagreb, Nexe)
2 teams from Macedonia (Metalurg, Vardar)
1 team from Serbia (Partizan or Vojvodina) at the moment Vojvodina leads in Serbian handball superleague over Partizan by 3 pts
1 team from Bosnia (Borac)
1 team from Montenegro (Lovćen)
1 team from Slovakia (Tatran)
-------------------------
+ 2 qualifying teams (two groups with winner of each group qualifying to the main league)
1 team from Serbia (Partizan or Vojvodina and Metaloplastika or Radnički)
1 team from Hungary (Honved?)
1 team from Slovenia (Trimo or Krško or possibly Slovan Ljubljana in the near future)
1 team from Croatia (Poreč or Bjelovar)
1 team from Bosnia (Izviđać or Bosna - if they dont get dissolved anytime soon)
1 team from Montenegro (Sutjeska)
1 team from Macedonia (Pelister?)
1 additional team from either Slovenia or Bosnia or Serbia or Hungary (or possibly a pre-qualification tournament in a group of four with the winner qualifiying to one of the two main qualifying groups - wild card pre-qualifying tournament if you wish).

Thats why if countries like Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro has the quality to field two teams in this league (which I doubt they have at the moment) they could prove that with the qualifiying tournament. Just like countries like Slovenia, Croatia and Hungary would have the chance to prove they deserve an additional spot. Lets face it. Not one country (except Slovenia) at this moment posseses more then two quality clubs (Slovenia 3, Hungary 2, Macedonia 1 and Croatia 1).

Generally at this moment most of the general handball public (officials and fans) in Slovenia is against the participation of Slovenian clubs in SEHA league, feeling that it would destroy the domestic league. Though the Slovenian championship isnt a pefect place and has some problems (mainly it would have to be changed from a league of 12 to a league with 10 clubs and a licencing process for clubs should get in order)., but personally I agree with the public. Only three Slovenian clubs to participate in SEHA? No, thanks.

Last edited by ratipok; March 9th, 2012 at 09:36 PM.
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Old March 9th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #100
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Croatia
Posts: 3,807
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I think, this wolud be a strong league:

1) Celje
2) Koper
3) Gorenje
4) Maribor
5) Zagreb
6) Nexe
7) Veszprem
8) Szeged
9) Vardar
10) Metalurg Skopje
11) Tatran
12) Serbian champion
13) Montenegrian champion
14) Bosnian champion
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