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Old March 10th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by ratipok View Post
The question is which Slovenian teams, that is how many? Slovenian handball federation wont join this league unless there are at least four, possibly five, Slovenian clubs in the league (my opinion offcourse). Celje, Gorenje and Cimos without question and probably Maribor as fourth. You say it would not be fair that Slovenia would have four teams in this league, I (and most of Slovenian public I believe) say why would it be unfair? Does this league wants quality or quantity? If SEHA would follow your "ideal league concept" and offer two permanent spots to Slovenia, Slovenian federation and their club members wouldnt even sit behind the barganing table. In any case, even if your concept of 2+2 for Slovenia would be realized that would mean that two Slovenian teams would simply qualify each year, with being a major upset if one of them would fail to do so.

My ideal SEHA concept would be a league of 16 teams from:
4 teams from Slovenia (Gorenje, Celje, Cimos, Maribor)
2 teams from Hungary (Vezsprem, Pick Szeged)
2 teams from Croatia (Zagreb, Nexe)
2 teams from Macedonia (Metalurg, Vardar)
1 team from Serbia (Partizan or Vojvodina) at the moment Vojvodina leads in Serbian handball superleague over Partizan by 3 pts
1 team from Bosnia (Borac)
1 team from Montenegro (Lovćen)
1 team from Slovakia (Tatran)
-------------------------
+ 2 qualifying teams (two groups with winner of each group qualifying to the main league)
1 team from Serbia (Partizan or Vojvodina and Metaloplastika or Radnički)
1 team from Hungary (Honved?)
1 team from Slovenia (Trimo or Krško or possibly Slovan Ljubljana in the near future)
1 team from Croatia (Poreč or Bjelovar)
1 team from Bosnia (Izviđać or Bosna - if they dont get dissolved anytime soon)
1 team from Montenegro (Sutjeska)
1 team from Macedonia (Pelister?)
1 additional team from either Slovenia or Bosnia or Serbia or Hungary (or possibly a pre-qualification tournament in a group of four with the winner qualifiying to one of the two main qualifying groups - wild card pre-qualifying tournament if you wish).

Thats why if countries like Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro has the quality to field two teams in this league (which I doubt they have at the moment) they could prove that with the qualifiying tournament. Just like countries like Slovenia, Croatia and Hungary would have the chance to prove they deserve an additional spot. Lets face it. Not one country (except Slovenia) at this moment posseses more then two quality clubs (Slovenia 3, Hungary 2, Macedonia 1 and Croatia 1).

Generally at this moment most of the general handball public (officials and fans) in Slovenia is against the participation of Slovenian clubs in SEHA league, feeling that it would destroy the domestic league. Though the Slovenian championship isnt a pefect place and has some problems (mainly it would have to be changed from a league of 12 to a league with 10 clubs and a licencing process for clubs should get in order)., but personally I agree with the public. Only three Slovenian clubs to participate in SEHA? No, thanks.
4 Slovenian teams?? Your best team Koper is actually very week team, I even think that one would be OK.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 01:46 AM   #102
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4 Slovenian teams?? Your best team Koper is actually very week team, I even think that one would be OK.
Nice try, at trolling .

On the other note. Koper is actually the third best Slovenian team at the moment, with one draw and five loses in the first part (20 rounds) of the Slovenian championship (8 points behind Gorenje and 3 behind Celje who both still has one match to play). They did finished as runners up in Slovenian cup (lost to Celje) and second in Champions league group stage (behind Hamburg and ahead of Metalurg) and will play Kielce in the Round of 16. After 20 rounds top six placed teams in Slovenian championship will play in the championship playoffs against each others and it is highly unlikely that we will see Koper in the Champions league next year (top two teams). But thats just because the league is strong obviously. They will finish third though and will qualify to the newly established EHF European cup (a merger of EHF Cup + EHF Cup Winners Cup). Interesting enough, Koper has a budget that is surpassed only by Zagreb in SEHA league. Similarly to Gorenje and Celje.

Slovenian league is currently designated as sixt in Europe, which means two spots in Champions league and another two in the newly established European cup for next season. Judging by the performances of clubs in this season EHF competitions it is likely that the league will become officialy designated as third in the power rankings (were it once already was).

Last edited by ratipok; March 10th, 2012 at 01:54 AM.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 04:08 AM   #103
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I can agree that Slovenia has better handball club competition than any other Balkan country. But still, I think that 4 teams is not so good idea at the start. Because this league will be more stronger than domestic Slovenian championship and it will have benefit for 4 Slovenian and for only 2 clubs from any other country. In that case, the handball in other countries will go down, because 3rd clubs from Macedonia, Serbia and Croatia will not have any quality rivals, so they will not be motivated to invest in youth camps and quality players from abroad.
If your federation wont like to seat to negotiate if there are only 2 or 3 places for your teams, than they don't need to negotiate. If you think you have strong league, than have it. I'm still assured that SEHA is great project for the Balkan teams. Metalurg is example how good competition as SEHA is, can produce stronger team for EHF CL. Because when they played Macedonian league they had poor results. And about telling how many quality teams has Macedonia, I can bet with you that Vardar is also very strong team with good players and believe if Vardar meets some Slovenian team that Vardar will win the battle.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 04:32 AM   #104
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Some of the Slovenian posters are seriously deluded.. with 4 Slovenian clubs in the league two of those would be rock bottom. Being 3rd or 6th league means absolutely nothing when there are only 2 leagues (German and Spanish) in the Europe where there are more than 2 competative clubs. Get real..
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Old March 10th, 2012, 06:04 AM   #105
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Here are the two French arenas which were used this season:

Location: Montpellier, Languedoc-Roussillon
Name: Park&Suites Arena
Handball Capacity: 9,000 seats
Opening: 2010























-------------------



Location: Chambéry, Savoy
Name: Le Phare
Handball Capacity: 4,423 seats
Opening: 2009



















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Old March 10th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #106
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Sorry but saying some of them/us are deluded is just being plain ignorant. I guess it really is hard to acknowledge for some that Slovenian league posseses quality. Saying that Slovenia doesnt have more then two competitive clubs to join the regional league is just plain trolling. Top three Slovenian teams (Celje, Gorenje and Cimos) all have a budget that in SEHA league is surpassed only by Zagreb and they are playing the Slovenian championship. All of their budgets would even increase dramaticlly if they would join this regional league (especially those of Gorenje and Cimos since their main sponsors have a strategic intrests in the markets of ex-Yugoslav countries). During this season Cimos finished second in their Champions league group stage behind German title holders Hamburg and were the only ones that made them a run for their money on both maches in the group, while Celje and Gorenje both plays in the quarterfinal of the Cup winners cup and the EHF cup (being among the favourites to win the title). Maribor is among the favourites to win the Challenge cup and is also in the quarterfinal. Next to Germany Slovenia is the only country in this season without a club being knocked out of a EHF competition. Spain's record was intact until Valladolid (currently third in Asobal league) was drawn togheter with Gorenje in the third round of the EHF Cup.

I have taken the liberty to check the results in EHF competitions during the past decade. Taking into account winners, runners up and semifinalists. Here are the stats:

EHF Champions League:
- Slovenia (1 win, 2 semifinals - two different clubs - Celje and Prule 67)
- Hungary (1 win, 2 semifinals - one club - Veszprem)

EHF Champions Trophy / EHF Supercup
- Slovenia (1 win, 1 final - one club - Celje)
- Hungary (2 semifinals - one club - Veszprem)

EHF Cup:
- Slovenia (1 final, 1 semifinal - two different clubs - Gorenje and Cimos)
- Hungary (1 semifinal - one club - Dunaferr)

EHF Cup Winners Cup
- Hungary (1 win, 1 semifinal - two different clubs - Veszprem and Dunaferr)
- Croatia (1 final, 1 semifinal - one club - Zagreb)
- Slovenia (2 semifinals - two different clubs - Celje and Gorenje)
- Bosnia (2 semifinals - two different clubs - Bosna and Izviđać)
- Macedonia (2 semifinals - one club - Vardar)
- Serbia (1 semifinal - one club - Partizan)

EHF Challenge Cup (a competition that isnt played by clubs ranked in top 6 of the EHF power league rankings, which means that Slovenian and Hungarian clubs didnt play in this competition for the whole last decade - other nations in the current SEHA league all did)
- Slovenia (1 win, 1 semifinal - two clubs - Cimos and Slovan)
- Macedonia (1 final - one club - Pelister)
- Croatia (1 semifinal - one club - Medveščak)
- Serbia (1 semifinal - one club - Partizan)

So lets say a team recieves a point if they have lost in the semifinal, two points if they lost in the final and three for winning the trophy. That would give us the following table:
- Slovenia 19 pts
- Hungary 12 pts
- Croatia 4 pts
- Macedonia 4 pts
- Bosnia 2 pts
- Serbia 2 pts

Is there really anything more to say? The only country that is somewhat close to Slovenian results in Europe during the past 10 years is Hungary, while others are not even close.

Back to reality..

Last edited by ratipok; March 10th, 2012 at 06:29 AM.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 06:24 AM   #107
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@N23SK

I doubt Metalurg got this good simply by playing in SEHA league. Maybe it contributed somewhat but the main reason why they are where they are currently is money. Money brought results to them even before SEHA really even started properly, imo. Btw, I really respect Vardar and know they are a hard nut to crack for any team (especially at home).

And another thing why SEHA officials desperatly want Slovenian clubs to join this league. Sponsorship. Gorenje, Cimos, Mercator and Petrol are among the firms with strategic intrest in the ex-Yugoslav markets. Those are known for their patronage of handball. Especially Cimos and Gorenje who are main sponsors of Koper and Velenje (Cimos also is the main sponsor of Gradačac, a team from the Bosnian premier league).

BTW: Should we move somewhere else with this disscusion? Dont want this to be deleted because we are probably offtopic

Nice pics "parcdesprinces"! Chambery arena looks really nice and a lot bigger inside than it is by capacity. And I just realized that Montpellier arena first two pics arent renders
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Old March 10th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratipok View Post
@N23SK

I doubt Metalurg got this good simply by playing in SEHA league. Maybe it contributed somewhat but the main reason why they are where they are currently is money. Money brought results to them even before SEHA really even started properly, imo. Btw, I really respect Vardar and know they are a hard nut to crack for any team (especially at home).

And another thing why SEHA officials desperatly want Slovenian clubs to join this league. Sponsorship. Gorenje, Cimos, Mercator and Petrol are among the firms with strategic intrest in the ex-Yugoslav markets. Those are known for their patronage of handball. Especially Cimos and Gorenje who are main sponsors of Koper and Velenje (Cimos also is the main sponsor of Gradačac, a team from the Bosnian premier league).

BTW: Should we move somewhere else with this disscusion? Dont want this to be deleted because we are probably offtopic

Nice pics "parcdesprinces"! Chambery arena looks really nice and a lot bigger inside than it is by capacity. And I just realized that Montpellier arena first two pics arent renders
About Metalurg, that's the personal view of the team's chiefs. They all agree that playing SEHA helped them to have more serious games. It's not same to play against Zagreb, Tatran, Borac and Nexe, or playing against Pelister, Tineks Prolet, Borec and etc. Of course that money play huge part, but they had the same budget and last year, but they don't even pass the qualifying stage.
The these with the sponsors is absolutely true, as we can see that also ABA basketball league has plenty of Slovenian sponsors and till this year NLB was main sponsor. Besides that, chairmanship like the Slovenian clubs for improving the quality of the competition. My opinion is that if Slovenians join this league, that it will be organized much better, there will be more TV broadcastings and that sponsors from all countries will enter in the SEHA league, just because Slovenian market is more attractive than Macedonian or Montenegrin.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #109
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I found some statistics about club's budgets. This is for sure one of the poorest competition in whole Europe (i don't know only how big are the budgets of the European volleyball teams). Even the teams who compete in the basketball ULEB Eurocup have bigger budgets.

1. AG København 13.3 million
2. THW Kiel 9.5 million
3. FC Barcelona Intersport 9 million
4. HSV Hamburg 9 million
5. Montpellier HB 6.7 million
6. Atlético Madrid 6.5 million
7. Vive Targi Kielce 6 million
8. IK Sävehof 5.4 million
9. Füchse Berlin 4.7 million
10. Orlen Wisła Płock 3.8 million
11. RK Zagreb 3.5 million
12. MKB Veszprém KC 3.5 million
13. CB Ademar León 3.2 million
14. RK Cimos Koper 2.7 million
15. Kadetten Schaffhausen 2.5 million
16. HC Metalurg 1.5 million
Ademar is 2.2 million not 3.2, and we expect a great reduction for next year. (I must correct it, the budget is 2.124.631 euros)

This is our arena, probably one of the oldest in EHF Champions League

Location: León, León
Name: Palacio Municipal de Deportes
Handball Capacity: 5,188 seats
Opening: 1970



Last edited by Kazurro; March 10th, 2012 at 06:50 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #110
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I must correct myself. Ademar budget for 2011-2012 season is EXACTLY 2.124.631 euros

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Originally Posted by Neda Say View Post
You may know that Atletico Madrid is not really the Atletico! It is the former Ciudad Real Balonmano club and their attendance sunk when they had to relocate last! So they numbers are flawed it will take time for the graft to take in Madrid! As for Budget cuts well I heard Europe was going through a crisis so it's not surprising to have clubs not having the same means than 2/3 years ago! Look at all leagues in Europe they are cutting on expenses cause the money is just not there!

If Handball is behind Basketball and Hockey, it's only logical! The rise of European handball happened after Sydney Olympics! When EHF really pushed for a European Championsleague and a more unified competition copying the UEFA organization which is the most professional federation in Europe!

However relying entirely on the European body won't be enough anyway especially with a weak economy!

Today, Germany, Spain, France and Denmark have the most attractive championships but it will be a while before France and Denmark are able to gain the firepower or Spain and Germany! But it is good to see that Norway is also stepping up its game! Really the only disappointment would be Russia!

I'm also wondering how long Asobal will be able to sustain 16 clubs when the country is facing a very rought patch!

Germany Bundesliga has 18 clubs, Spain has 16 teams. France and Denmark have opted for a 14 teams format which is wise but does not generate lots of TV money! In all case I think money won't come from TV rights as much as in let's say football! Therefore clubs are pushing for new arenas! The process for sure is slow but it does offer some guarantees!
About CR that was the official reason but IMHO is not true. During the times of precrisis, minor professional sports in Spain like basketball or handball were subsidied by municipal governments and by real estate companies or local banks (usually in order to get benefits like faster permissions to build etc...)

CR was heavily subsidied by his owner a very important bussinessman, who had a close relationship with the regional government of Castilla La Mancha, the region where Ciudad Real is. After 30 years with the same party in power things changed last year as they lost the government. Just a few days afterwards the owner decided to move the team.

You wonder how ASOBAL is able to sustain a 16-teams League. The answer is easy, is unable. Teams are receiving less subsidies as most of municipalities and local banks are near bankrupcy or doing considerable cuts for avoiding it. Nowadays most of ASOBAL teams are not paying wages (I've read some informations saying only 3 teams dont owe money to players).

For example Ademar, is a team in a 200,000 inhabitants city were handball is very popular as our football team sucks and our basketball team is far from his best era. The average attendance is more than 3000 people which is the best in Spain along with Atlético (and is not any boom, it has been in that way since the mid-90s), our youth teams are the best in Spain along with Barcelona, so as you can imagine we have one of the most solid structures in Spain.

But the reality is different. We owe four months to the players because the Municipality (near bankrupcy) dont pay the promised subvention and one of the sponsors, a State-owned railway company have not paid yet. The money owned by them to Ademar is 400.000 euros, although fortunately seems the problem of the railways is only a merely bureaucratic one. So although we get good income from tickets we cant pay. Then you can imagine which is the situation for those teams who depends almost enterely from subventions or subsidies and has not 3000 season ticket holders like us, but only 100 or 200 people.

Last edited by Kazurro; March 10th, 2012 at 06:56 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #111
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@Kazurro

How much do the players earn at Ademar, if you now? Do they have big wages, like 10-15k per month or lower?
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Old March 11th, 2012, 03:07 AM   #112
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@Kazurro

How much do the players earn at Ademar, if you now? Do they have big wages, like 10-15k per month or lower?
There's a player, a well-known Spanish player who's earning about 10k per month. The other players are earning about 5k-6k or less, including Stranovsky (he's signing for Barça next year is said to earn about 150-200k per year). The total budget for salaries is about a million, I don't remember exactly.

By the way Rutenka is said to be earning 800k per year in Barça I dont know if it is true... but I believe it.

Last edited by Kazurro; March 11th, 2012 at 03:13 AM.
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Old March 11th, 2012, 07:27 PM   #113
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Last round of the regular season in Slovenian championship, another day of hard fought matches for top Slovenian teams:

Cimos Koper : Šmartno Herz Factor Banka 39:35 (18:17)

Trimo Trebnje : Istrabenz Plini Izola 27:23 (12:12)

Maribor Branik : Ribnica Riko hiše 28:29 (14:14)

Krka : Celje Pivovarna Laško 26:26 (11:14)

Gorenje Velenje : Jeruzalem Ormož 38:22 (18:10)

The "Championship playoffs" will be played among the top six teams during the first 20 rounds, with clubs attaining their points from the regular season.
1. Gorenje Velenje - 39 points
2. Celje Pivovarna Laško - 33
3. Cimos Koper - 27
4. Trimo Trebnje - 22
5. Maribor Branik - 17
6. Krško - 17

The rest of the bunch will play in the "Relegation playoffs". Looks like Gorenje and Celje are almost certainly set for next years Champions League, while Cimos is set to play in the newly established European cup. Trimo and Maribor will battle it out on who will join them.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #114
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During this week the board of the Association of Slovenian first division clubs granted Celje a permission to join SEHA league in the next season under several restrictions. Some would say thats a surprise but not really, since one of the conditions is that they will have to play ALL of the games in the next season Slovenian league (32 rounds). So in esence Slovenian league doesnt lose anything.

Celje is the only club who gained the permission and they were the only one who applied for one (other Slovenian clubs are currently not interested in joining the regional league).

Since Celje will be forced to play all games in Slovenian league that means that they will likely play majority of matches in SEHA with their reserve players (they just wont be able to play 32 Slovenian league matches + at least 10 Champions league + Slovenian cup and probably well over 20 SEHA matches. Thats around 75 matches of the season. Unless they double their current budget (which they wont since that would mean probably over 5 million) and sign at least one full field squad of player of similar quality they currently have, they will drop dead in the middle of the season. So, either they will "die" in early December or they will play SEHA with reserves, since Slovenian league is competitive (if they play with reserves there they will lose their chances for Champions league qualification by December) and only Slovenain league brings Champions league qualifications (you get nothing for winning SEHA), which is one of their primary objectives each season and brings clubs the most money.

It is also good to note that all that doesnt mean that Celje if 100% approved for SEHA league during next season. They still dont have the green light of Slovenian handball federation and since most of Slovenian league clubs, officials and fans are against this league their approval is unlikely.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 12:04 AM   #115
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Not really a regular CL arena but BSV (from Denmark) played their home game against Atletico Madrid here in Herning. The attendance for the game was 10.137, but the capacity is higher when adding more chairs closer to the field. The record for a handball game here is 12.138.

Location: Herning, Denmark
Name: Jyske Bank Boxen
Handball Capacity: 10.000-12.138 seats (depending on configuration)
Opening: 2010

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Old March 16th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #116
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Not really a regular CL arena but BSV (from Denmark) played their home game against Atletico Madrid here in Herning. The attendance for the game was 10.137, but the capacity is higher when adding more chairs closer to the field. The record for a handball game here is 12.138.

Location: Herning, Denmark
Name: Jyske Bank Boxen
Handball Capacity: 10.000-12.138 seats (depending on configuration)
Opening: 2010

Ademar played once at León Arena (our bullring) with a capacity of 10.000 people. However it has been not considered in recent times for important matches because of the fact the enviroment in the Palacio de Deportes is much hotter.

By the way about the issue of debts in Spain, nowadays there are only five teams who dont owe wages to his players, Barcelona, Atleti, La Rioja, Huesca and Anaitasuna. I hope problems will solve here...
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Old March 19th, 2012, 03:54 AM   #117
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Metalurg - Zagreb 7k but there was an theatrical atmosphere



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Old March 24th, 2012, 05:04 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazurro View Post
I must correct myself. Ademar budget for 2011-2012 season is EXACTLY 2.124.631 euros



About CR that was the official reason but IMHO is not true. During the times of precrisis, minor professional sports in Spain like basketball or handball were subsidied by municipal governments and by real estate companies or local banks (usually in order to get benefits like faster permissions to build etc...)

CR was heavily subsidied by his owner a very important bussinessman, who had a close relationship with the regional government of Castilla La Mancha, the region where Ciudad Real is. After 30 years with the same party in power things changed last year as they lost the government. Just a few days afterwards the owner decided to move the team.

You wonder how ASOBAL is able to sustain a 16-teams League. The answer is easy, is unable. Teams are receiving less subsidies as most of municipalities and local banks are near bankrupcy or doing considerable cuts for avoiding it. Nowadays most of ASOBAL teams are not paying wages (I've read some informations saying only 3 teams dont owe money to players).

For example Ademar, is a team in a 200,000 inhabitants city were handball is very popular as our football team sucks and our basketball team is far from his best era. The average attendance is more than 3000 people which is the best in Spain along with Atlético (and is not any boom, it has been in that way since the mid-90s), our youth teams are the best in Spain along with Barcelona, so as you can imagine we have one of the most solid structures in Spain.

But the reality is different. We owe four months to the players because the Municipality (near bankrupcy) dont pay the promised subvention and one of the sponsors, a State-owned railway company have not paid yet. The money owned by them to Ademar is 400.000 euros, although fortunately seems the problem of the railways is only a merely bureaucratic one. So although we get good income from tickets we cant pay. Then you can imagine which is the situation for those teams who depends almost enterely from subventions or subsidies and has not 3000 season ticket holders like us, but only 100 or 200 people.
I didnt know that a strong league like Asobal has such a low attendance. What is the average attendance? I couldn't find any figure..
German Bundesliga stay better with around 4.500 average att..

What's going on with Elgorrida Bidasoa? It is still play in asobal?
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Old March 25th, 2012, 02:17 AM   #119
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AG Copenhagen plans to break EHF CL’s visitors record!


Danish champion, AG Copenhagen is already in preparation of TOP 8 home match in the EHF Champions League. Danes want to make something special, that is why Management decided to organise match at the “Parken Stadium”, the biggest one in Copenhagen, where AG already broke world’s record in spectators at one handball match – more than 35.000 last year in Danish Championship Final against Silkeborg.

This time, capacity will be smaller – about 22.000, enough to break record of the EHF CL and to fit all the standards and conditions for TOP handball events.


Source: http://www.handball-planet.com/2012/...ehf-cl-record/
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Old March 25th, 2012, 09:25 PM   #120
Kazurro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwn View Post
I didnt know that a strong league like Asobal has such a low attendance. What is the average attendance? I couldn't find any figure..
German Bundesliga stay better with around 4.500 average att..

What's going on with Elgorrida Bidasoa? It is still play in asobal?
Well I don't know but I suppose is about 1,500.

Whilst in Germany or Scandinavia handball has got some importance in big cities as the second professional team sport (Berlin, Hamburg, Copenaghe, etc...) in Spain this role is for basketball and the cities where handball is popular usually are small ones where there's any other major sport. For example in my city (metro 200,000 inhabitants) we have a second division basketball team and our football team is an amateur one in the fourth level. Same for other historical cities of our handball like Ciudad Real (about 70,000 inhabitants), Irún (Bidasoa, about the same), Granollers (60.000),etc... And most of the teams of ASOBAL are from similar cities like Logroño (150k), Antequera (40k), Cuenca (50k), Huesca (50k)...

Bidasoa nowadays is playing in the División de Plata, our second category very far from promotion or relegation. They've had a lot of economic troubles in the past, but I hope them to return to elite.

By the way, we've defeated Veszprem. It's the first time in our history we win a knock-out in Champions League
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