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Old December 31st, 2014, 05:30 PM   #241
MiaM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Basically you got it wrong on all points. Another word for "tram" is "streetcar" - which means it mingles with other traffic.
So please tell me, where the Ijburg line "mingles with other traffic"?

(Your picture shows the only place where the Ijburg line runs a few metres in a "pedestrian" area).

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Although I do fail to see how someone from Rotterdam and Tilburg could possibly know what's best for Amsterdam...
I don't know what Rotterdam or Tilburg has to do with this. It's a general discussion valid around the world. There are loads of good reasons to choose tram or metro, but speed itself isn't always one of them. (A good example of trams giving fast travel speed is the "premetro" systems around the world).
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Old December 31st, 2014, 06:10 PM   #242
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Basically you got it wrong on all points. Another word for "tram" is "streetcar" - which means it mingles with other traffic.
Don't be stupid here. You know as well as the rest of us that trams in Amsterdam get their own right of way when possible. So there's a few sections where traffic's mixed, but only in places where it doesn't slow down the tram too much. Not comparable to a North American streetcar which shares the road with other traffic like 80% of the time.

And yeah there are at-grade crossings of course, but wouldn't call that "mingling".
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Old December 31st, 2014, 06:24 PM   #243
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Still, tram 26 is noticeably slower than any of the metro lines (but faster than any of the other tram lines).
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Old December 31st, 2014, 06:48 PM   #244
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But that's because the Amsterdam metro has fewer stops per kilometer than the Ijburg line. More stops give longer travel times onboard but also shorter walking distance between the stops and where you actually are going from/to.

Usually trams have more stops than metro, and metro usually have more stops than commuter trains, but this is also just a rule of thumb. (An obvious example where this isn't true is of course the line in Amsterdam where metro trains and trams share tracks...)

P.S. yes I've not only been to Amsterdam, I've actually travelend along the whole Ijburg line a few months ago. I don't see what that has to do with the discussion. Anyone can check distances on a map and look at a timetable without having been at a particular place.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 09:09 PM   #245
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P.S. yes I've not only been to Amsterdam, I've actually travelend along the whole Ijburg line a few months ago.
The Ijburg-line actually is light-rail, not tram. It has even tunnel-sections.
A typical tram, even with right-of-way has a commercial speed of 19-24 km/h. Light rail of 25-30, metro of 30 up to 40 km/h. Saying tram is as fast as metros was a funny joke, happy new year anyway.
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Old January 1st, 2015, 09:24 PM   #246
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Line 26 takes 21 minutes to complete a full trip over 8,3km, thus 23,6km/h of average commercial speed.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:14 AM   #247
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IJburg just doesn't have the population to warrant metro.
In the future it will.

IJburg could grow easily towards 250.000 inhabitants.

To get there and accelerate developments, it would need a metro FIRST.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 11:23 AM   #248
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You and Suburbanist are only interested in one thing and thing only: to turn the Netherlands into one big city. Suburbanist want the Netherlands to look like Tilburg, Magistraler would like to see as many immigrants possible settled in our new City State. This metro 26 thing is just a lame excuse. I can read you two guys like a book...
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 11:28 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
The Ijburg-line actually is light-rail, not tram. It has even tunnel-sections.
A typical tram, even with right-of-way has a commercial speed of 19-24 km/h. Light rail of 25-30, metro of 30 up to 40 km/h. Saying tram is as fast as metros was a funny joke, happy new year anyway.
There are no legal defitinitions like that.

Just have a look at the specs for some wehicles and you will find that the motor power divided by the weight can be about the same for a tram, metro train and even a commuter train. Combining that fact with that there are trams that have maximum speed in the 80-100km/h range and you will realize that it's not the wehicles themself that have such different performance.
(For example, Amsterdam Combino trams has about 15kw/t (but the 11G/12G only has about 9kw/t) compared to the M5 metro trains that have about 17kw/t).

The real travel speed diference usually lies in the infrastructure. Unless the infrastructure limits the speed of the trains a tram can run about as fast as a metro train.

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Line 26 takes 21 minutes to complete a full trip over 8,3km, thus 23,6km/h of average commercial speed.
Another way to see it is that the average time between neighbouring stops is about the same on line 26 as on the metro.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:16 PM   #250
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The real travel speed diference usually lies in the infrastructure. Unless the infrastructure limits the speed of the trains a tram can run about as fast as a metro train.
You can't compensate for lack of grade-separation, for instance, in the case of line 26. And no matter how much power per ton the trams have, they cannot run even at 40km/h on the sectors shared with pedestrians, cyclists, cars in other lines in Leidsetraat or Utrechtsestraat.

Let's compare a trip between Weteringsch and Centraal Station. It takes 2,2km and 12 minutes of scheduled travel time by trams 24 or 16. This means average speed of only 11km/h. And this is the "fastest" tram route going out of the station to the outer areas other than tram 26, it has only 4 stops for these 2,2km. Lines that run on those two other streets I mentioned fare worse: trams 1, 2 and 5 from Leidseplein have average speed of 9,2 km/h, tram 4 from Stadhouderskade has average speed of 9,7km/h.

This is why more subways are needed in Amsterdam, only subways can transport passengers in a fast way.

And we even haven't started discussing the impacts of traffic interference on travel time reliability.

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Another way to see it is that the average time between neighbouring stops is about the same on line 26 as on the metro.
I find this concept improper. Most people travelling by tram, bus or metro are not travelling just between two adjacent stops. This idea also ignores the spatial effects (10km to cover are still 10.000m no matter how many times you stop between start and end points).
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 12:20 PM   #251
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Combining that fact with that there are trams that have maximum speed in the 80-100km/h range and you will realize that it's not the wehicles themself that have such different performance.
Hmm, light-rail doesnīt have much to do with the weight of the car. This is an old explanation, maybe derives from the US in the 70s (heavy/light-rail). European metro-cars tend to be as light or heavy as trams are. The main difference is commercial speed and capacity. If you take this in regard, it automatically tends to metro, LRT or tram, depending of what is needed. BTW, Ijburg line 26 is good as it is, anyway. If it comes to metro in Amsterdam, there are other projects to concentrate on.

But please tell me: Which tram runs with 80-100 km/h?. I mean tram, without signalling, so without block, moving-block etc., driving-stuff is responsible for everything?

A typical tram in german or french cities, with priority at traffic-lights and on itīs seperate right-of-way, has a max. commercial speed of 24 km/h. Normal case is 19-20 km/h. Itīs simply because stopping every 500 m in average and people crossing tracks at stops. Thatīs what tram is designed for, there is nothing bad about this. Anything beyond can only be reached via long station-distances or complete separation from other traffic.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 03:04 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
Hmm, light-rail doesnīt have much to do with the weight of the car. This is an old explanation, maybe derives from the US in the 70s (heavy/light-rail). European metro-cars tend to be as light or heavy as trams are. The main difference is commercial speed and capacity. If you take this in regard, it automatically tends to metro, LRT or tram, depending of what is needed. BTW, Ijburg line 26 is good as it is, anyway. If it comes to metro in Amsterdam, there are other projects to concentrate on.

But please tell me: Which tram runs with 80-100 km/h?. I mean tram, without signalling, so without block, moving-block etc., driving-stuff is responsible for everything?

A typical tram in german or french cities, with priority at traffic-lights and on itīs seperate right-of-way, has a max. commercial speed of 24 km/h. Normal case is 19-20 km/h. Itīs simply because stopping every 500 m in average and people crossing tracks at stops. Thatīs what tram is designed for, there is nothing bad about this. Anything beyond can only be reached via long station-distances or complete separation from other traffic.
Not quite 80 km/h but in Melbourne we have dedicated off street sections that could get up to 70km/h

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0EsTdhbZbA
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 03:13 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You can't compensate for lack of grade-separation, for instance, in the case of line 26. And no matter how much power per ton the trams have, they cannot run even at 40km/h on the sectors shared with pedestrians, cyclists, cars in other lines in Leidsetraat or Utrechtsestraat.

Let's compare a trip between Weteringsch and Centraal Station. It takes 2,2km and 12 minutes of scheduled travel time by trams 24 or 16. This means average speed of only 11km/h. And this is the "fastest" tram route going out of the station to the outer areas other than tram 26, it has only 4 stops for these 2,2km. Lines that run on those two other streets I mentioned fare worse: trams 1, 2 and 5 from Leidseplein have average speed of 9,2 km/h, tram 4 from Stadhouderskade has average speed of 9,7km/h.

This is why more subways are needed in Amsterdam, only subways can transport passengers in a fast way.

And we even haven't started discussing the impacts of traffic interference on travel time reliability.



I find this concept improper. Most people travelling by tram, bus or metro are not travelling just between two adjacent stops. This idea also ignores the spatial effects (10km to cover are still 10.000m no matter how many times you stop between start and end points).
For a city the size of Amsterdam, the underground system is more than adequate...


Last edited by Yellow Fever; January 2nd, 2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: offensive comment
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:01 PM   #254
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Not quite 80 km/h but in Melbourne we have dedicated off street sections that could get up to 70km/h
Interesting. According to BOStrab, german regulation for operating trams, 70 km/h is maximum speed for tram without signalling (driving-on-sight). Maybe itīs on St. Kilda-route, on former alignment for railways? Poznan fast-tram also speeds to 70 km/h, but they also said, that itīs at the Limit of safety because of the dense interval on that line. Seems that 70 km/h is common sense as limit for driving-on-sight.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:04 PM   #255
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Another way to see it is that the average time between neighbouring stops is about the same on line 26 as on the metro.
M54 takes 23 minutes to complete 12,7km, averaging at 33km/h, 907m per stop
M50 takes 33 minutes to complete 20,5km, averaging at 37km/h, 1079m per stop
M53 takes 20,5 minutes to complete 11,7km, averaging at 34km/h, 900m per stop
M52 is expected to take 16 minutes to complete 9,7km, averaging at 36km/h, 1386m per stop

You see that they are all significantly faster than tram 26, while that line has 944m per stop. Myth Busted.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:17 PM   #256
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For a city the size of Amsterdam, the underground system is more than adequate...
...
adequate? Amsterdam public transport doesnt really allow for east-west movements. Among others.


The big questions are :

- Are we really happy with the size of Amsterdam?
- Is a small sized capital of a country ranked 16th (gdp) sustainable/desirable?
- Should Amsterdam be able to accomodate dutch population growth?
- Does a world class city merit a world class transportation system?
- Should government wait for things to happen, or should it anticipate and stimulate developments?
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:17 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by tunnel owl View Post
A typical tram in german or french cities, with priority at traffic-lights and on itīs seperate right-of-way, has a max. commercial speed of 24 km/h. Normal case is 19-20 km/h. Itīs simply because stopping every 500 m in average and people crossing tracks at stops. Thatīs what tram is designed for, there is nothing bad about this. Anything beyond can only be reached via long station-distances or complete separation from other traffic.
There are even tram-train schemes, though I'm skeptical about those. Amsterdam has one of such line, tram 5, which runs mostly as a partially-segregated light-rail from Westwijk to Amsterdam Zuid and as a city tram from there onward to Centraal Station.

The problem, in my point of view, is using a setup that is sub-optimal for a certain set of travel demands, especially if we take as given the official instance of Amsterdam and surrounding municipalities the policy of promoting public transportation (whether or not we agree with that).

A tram with a commercial speed of 9km/h is slower than cycling, and just twice as fast as a paced walker. At least some mildly promising signs can be seen, with abolition of a handful of tram stops for the 2015 schedule (source):

Stops in red were abolished altogether 14/12/2014

.


.


.


.


.


All these stops were relatively close to nearby ones. I still think they could shed more stops to speed up trams. Moreover, they could build low fences (not visually intrusive, but enough to keep 95% of pedestrians out of the ROW) on the Damrak and Nieuwezijds Voorburgwal. Finally, they could build a tram tunnel under Nieuwezijds Voorburgwal and take all trams out of Damrak and Rokin after the new Noordzuidlijn opens for service.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:30 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Magistraler View Post
adequate? Amsterdam public transport doesnt really allow for east-west movements. Among others.

The big questions are :

Quote:
- Are we really happy with the size of Amsterdam?
You're obviously not, others are. I would hate to see the precious Dutch countryside that surrounds Amsterdam and connecting cities being filled with horrible modern Dutch architecture in order to house even more immigrants - which is what you have been proposing for a long time. Now, Suburbanist isn't interested in any of that. He just wants to see areas being built up with stacked motorways and subways regardless whether we need it or not. It just looks good in his eyes. He's even dictating Las Vegas how they should run their public transport system from his humble little home in Tilburg.

Quote:
- Is a small sized capital of a country ranked 16th (gdp) sustainable/desirable?
Why not?

Quote:
- Should Amsterdam be able to accomodate dutch population growth?
It's not really growing though. It's shrinking. And the only way you wish to deal with this problem is to put immigration in place.

Quote:
- Does a world class city merit a world class transportation system?
It has already, and indeed one of the finest in the world

Quote:
- Should government wait for things to happen, or should it anticipate and stimulate developments?
Which is what they are doing in Rotterdam. Result: empty office blocks.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:32 PM   #259
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adequate? Amsterdam public transport doesnt really allow for east-west movements. Among others.
Once NS-Metro is ready the last real missing link would be an extension of existing EW-Metro at Amsterdam CS further west via Leidseplein, Lelylaan, Osdorp, Badhoevedorp, Shiphol and maybe Hoofdorp. It should be done in the same sense like NS-Metro, big station-distance not in order to substitute tram but to create a fast link to already existing large housings without any adequate public transport. This would be probably ambitious enough for Amsterdam during the next decades.
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Old January 2nd, 2015, 04:38 PM   #260
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There are even tram-train schemes, though I'm skeptical about those. Amsterdam has one of such line, tram 5, which runs mostly as a partially-segregated light-rail from Westwijk to Amsterdam Zuid and as a city tram from there onward to Centraal Station.
Nah. Line 5 is just a normal tram route. But it's the only line that uses bidirectional trains. And it only goes as far as Amstelveen Binnenhof.
It shares part of its tracks with the 51 light rail, which has a "tram-mode" and "metro-mode". After it switches to tram mode at Zuid station it uses tram signalling, bells and the same catenary power. Despite the name sneltram it's not even really much faster than the 5 on segments where they share tracks. 51 goes towards Westwijk.
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