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Old June 14th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #21
Herbie Fully Loaded
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Nice update!
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
Simply, Poland isn't such religious as you think
That's true. The most conservative and religious people are old-dated ones, who has been brainwashed by some sick priest (And his radio station). Fortunatelly this group is getting less numberous, and there are more and more atheists, especially the youth.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #23
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Old June 15th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
I prefer good European law than stupid polish law.
good european law about cucumber and bananas is very smart and remeber snail is a fish because ue says that


btw
where is place from last picture


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
Simply, Poland isn't such religious as you think

Last edited by Wielki Gmach; June 15th, 2010 at 02:04 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Wielki Gmach View Post
good european law about cucumber and bananas is very smart and remeber snail is a fish because ue says that


btw
where is place from last picture



Yeah, sometimes EU makes too much stupid regulations.
And that place is near a crossing Jana Pawła II St. with Elektoralna St. a view from north to south.

I don't want to make off topic, but for people who think that Warsaw is conservative and backwarded - a poll made by Newsweek in June 2010 in Warsaw: 66% pro gay civil unions, 27% against; 49% pro Europride (7% going to attend), 25% against; 86% pro homoerotic exhibition in National Museum, 8% against (rest neutral or don't know). So don't tell that we are conservative :P

source: http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/sekc...-gejom,60220,1

Last edited by Flawerwell; June 16th, 2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 11:37 PM   #26
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That's true. The most conservative and religious people are old-dated ones, who has been brainwashed by some sick priest (And his radio station). Fortunatelly this group is getting less numberous, and there are more and more atheists, especially the youth.
I know this is not a place for religious discussions but I'm a young Pole in Canada and see nothing wrong with being semi-religious. I hope Poland doesn't become brain washed by the western Europeans into thinking Christianity is bad and that Poland should become another cookie cutter atheist Euro country. That would be the saddest of all. Lastly, just because gay life is not part of the mainstream in Poland does not make it a backwards country. The culture is not at that stage yet. What's next? Women should be against giving birth to children? Then Europe will really die out. Being too liberal is not always good.

Now, let'e enjoy the pics.

Last edited by rychlik; June 15th, 2010 at 11:45 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
I know this is not a place for religious discussions but I'm a young Pole in Canada and see nothing wrong with being semi-religious. I hope Poland doesn't become brain washed by the western Europeans into thinking Christianity is bad and that Poland should become another cookie cutter atheist Euro country. That would be the saddest of all. Lastly, just because gay life is not part of the mainstream in Poland does not make it a backwards country. The culture is not at that stage yet. What's next? Women should be against giving birth to children? Then Europe will really die out. Being too liberal is not always good.
You live in Canada, so maybe you don't know the situation in Poland. Catholic church got all lands which was stolen by communists and much more - church even expelled schools or poor-houses to sell buildings and got money. Priests break in a politics and make politicians to do decisions even when most people are against. And of course church tell with a hate about atheists, women, gays or all people who don't support priests. The same situation was in Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain... so don't be surprised that European people lost their faith. In America people treat the religion personally, in Poland religion is public. When I asked my 5 friends if they are catholics, they said "yes". Then I asked them if they believe in Immaculate Conception, Last Judgment and our resurrection they started laughing and said that it's stupid. So that's look the faith of most young Poles here (officially about 90% catholics, but how many really?).




















The interion is in a Royal Castle (totally destroyed during II world war and rebuilt by communists). It's not a building on the photo below (it's a Palace on the Water in a Bath Garden, it survived the war without damages).




Last edited by Flawerwell; June 16th, 2010 at 12:54 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 06:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
I don't want to make off topic, but for people who think that Warsaw is conservative and backwarded - a poll made by Newsweek in June 2010 in Warsaw: 66% pro gay civil unions, 27% opposed; 42% pro Europride, 25% opposed; 86% pro homoerotic exhibition in National Museum, 8% opposed (rest neutral or don't know). So don't tell that we are conservative :P
Unfortunately right wing government do not keep up with society changes...

Very nice photos. Many well known places.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 10:24 PM   #29
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I agree, Poland is not that simple to define. I'm Polish Catholic but anti-Radio Maria and people like Kaczynski who live in the past and am for tolerance, progress, gay marriage etc. I actually think Canada and Poland are about the same in levels of tolerance although immigration of different ethnicities/races is a recent phenomenon that might time in Poland as a whole. When it comes to sex Poles can be pretty radical left wing : )

Looking at these pics, it makes me think that Warsaw represents very well the complexity that is Poland.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 02:37 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
You live in Canada, so maybe you don't know the situation in Poland. Catholic church got all lands which was stolen by communists and much more - church even expelled schools or poor-houses to sell buildings and got money. Priests break in a politics and make politicians to do decisions even when most people are against. And of course church tell with a hate about atheists, women, gays or all people who don't support priests. The same situation was in Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain... so don't be surprised that European people lost their faith. In America people treat the religion personally, in Poland religion is public. When I asked my 5 friends if they are catholics, they said "yes". Then I asked them if they believe in Immaculate Conception, Last Judgment and our resurrection they started laughing and said that it's stupid. So that's look the faith of most young Poles here (officially about 90% catholics, but how many really?).


Maybe its best to stick to photos relevant to the title. We want to see lively!!




Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
I agree, Poland is not that simple to define. I'm Polish Catholic but anti-Radio Maria and people like Kaczynski who live in the past and am for tolerance, progress, gay marriage etc. I actually think Canada and Poland are about the same in levels of tolerance although immigration of different ethnicities/races is a recent phenomenon that might time in Poland as a whole. When it comes to sex Poles can be pretty radical left wing : )

Looking at these pics, it makes me think that Warsaw represents very well the complexity that is Poland
In the end such issues are complex anywhere, whether its Italy, Russia, Turkey or Bulgaria
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Old June 17th, 2010, 10:06 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
I know this is not a place for religious discussions but I'm a young Pole in Canada and see nothing wrong with being semi-religious. I hope Poland doesn't become brain washed by the western Europeans into thinking Christianity is bad and that Poland should become another cookie cutter atheist Euro country. That would be the saddest of all. Lastly, just because gay life is not part of the mainstream in Poland does not make it a backwards country. The culture is not at that stage yet. What's next? Women should be against giving birth to children? Then Europe will really die out. Being too liberal is not always good.

Now, let'e enjoy the pics.
Agreed! I'm Polish but born and raised in the United States. Seeing Poland end up like Western Europe would be horrible. It is possible to be rich and religious. LOOK AT ISRAEL! Try telling Jews to be less religious and more liberal. They know that if they give into liberal pressure more and more Arabs will enter Israel and have tons of kids. It is common that if a country becomes less religious (Christian) then other religions fill in the gap. Look at Beligium. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50 years half the population will be Muslim. The Muslims don't give a SHIT about liberal crap. Just look at this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv85W0Nrj4Y

Please Poland, don't give in to Western European pressure! Don't become like them! I have met hundreds of people here in New York that tell me how they admire the fact that Poland could be both religious and increasingly wealthy. POLAND, STAY TRUE TO YOUR ROOTS!

(And no, I'm not some "Jesus freak", but I cannot deny that Christianity has kept Poland solid and united through the worst and best of times.)
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Old June 17th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #32
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I don't have more photos. Next will be after 17th of July.

It's a little bit hard to show "lively" Warsaw because very wide pavements prevent formation a crowd, so streets usually look so empty. I should take photos near metro station or shopping malls - there always is a crowd.

Poland is in Europe, no in America and if you want to stop atheism here, you should change the church. Older people remember church fighting with communist regime, so they are more religious. But my generation (I was born in 1992) remember only one church - rich, arrogant, bossy and hypocritical. Really wise priest Tischner said: "Nobody lost faith because of reading Marx, but many people lost faith because of meeting priests". The church will make Poland atheist.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 12:38 PM   #33
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These last pics were amazing, i'm really waiting to see more .
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Old June 17th, 2010, 01:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flawerwell View Post
"Nobody lost faith because of reading Marx, but many people lost faith because of meeting priests".
That's exactly what I also wanted to quote!

I completly disagree with you fellows, whereas it's hard not to agree with the one of the most famous futurologists - Alvin Toffler. According to Toffler, we
are the last generation of the old civilization and at the same time first generation of a new civilization of XXI century. A civilization where the most important wealth is knowledge and science!

In my deep conviction, XXI century should be the age of reason, not religion.
There should be a thick line between church and a country - while in Poland (But for example in the US as well) two of this institutions permeate each other.

Country in its principle was supposed to be secular.
That's what also Founding Fathers of the United States thought. For example Thomas Jefferson.
They would have also been terrified, If they had seen what happens in "their states".

George W. Bush asked if he recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists, answered:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."

This issue of wrong distinguishing patriotism and being religious is very common to misunderstand, also in Poland - what we can perceive on the example of Kaczynski's electorate.

To sum up, In my mind, being atheist is a really high value. It testifies about being rational and about thinking logically - what are for me core values.

I truly admire countries like Czech Republic and Estonia - which are the least religious ones in the europe, but also other protestant counties like Sweden, where there is not too many people who believe that "there is a god").
It's also really interesting that those two countries are one of the richer ones of the former eastern bloc.

I also agree with a theory of Max Weber showed in his book "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". He claimed that sometimes in the development of capitalistic economy, the greater role than material factors played values of protestant religion (sense of hard working, saving up, thrift, moderation and self-esteem).
I would also like to point out, that all protestant countries in the europe are not really religious.

He was also afraid that through going to rationalizing regulations of all spheres of social life capitalistic system carries a risk to a human spirituality.
And although he was a believer, he was right. We can choose either science or religion.
The choice is yours.

I also strongly recommend you program of Proffesor Richard Dawkins called "The root of all evil", which you can YouTube.

@EOT
Photos are really amazing, that's Warsaw which I like.
Waiting for more.




Yours, Shep.

Last edited by Shep; June 17th, 2010 at 01:31 PM.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 12:43 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep View Post
That's exactly what I also wanted to quote!

I completly disagree with you fellows, whereas it's hard not to agree with the one of the most famous futurologists - Alvin Toffler. According to Toffler, we
are the last generation of the old civilization and at the same time first generation of a new civilization of XXI century. A civilization where the most important wealth is knowledge and science!

In my deep conviction, XXI century should be the age of reason, not religion.
There should be a thick line between church and a country - while in Poland (But for example in the US as well) two of this institutions permeate each other.

Country in its principle was supposed to be secular.
That's what also Founding Fathers of the United States thought. For example Thomas Jefferson.
They would have also been terrified, If they had seen what happens in "their states".

George W. Bush asked if he recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists, answered:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."

This issue of wrong distinguishing patriotism and being religious is very common to misunderstand, also in Poland - what we can perceive on the example of Kaczynski's electorate.

To sum up, In my mind, being atheist is a really high value. It testifies about being rational and about thinking logically - what are for me core values.

I truly admire countries like Czech Republic and Estonia - which are the least religious ones in the europe, but also other protestant counties like Sweden, where there is not too many people who believe that "there is a god").
It's also really interesting that those two countries are one of the richer ones of the former eastern bloc.

I also agree with a theory of Max Weber showed in his book "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". He claimed that sometimes in the development of capitalistic economy, the greater role than material factors played values of protestant religion (sense of hard working, saving up, thrift, moderation and self-esteem).
I would also like to point out, that all protestant countries in the europe are not really religious.

He was also afraid that through going to rationalizing regulations of all spheres of social life capitalistic system carries a risk to a human spirituality.
And although he was a believer, he was right. We can choose either science or religion.
The choice is yours.

I also strongly recommend you program of Proffesor Richard Dawkins called "The root of all evil", which you can YouTube.

@EOT
Photos are really amazing, that's Warsaw which I like.
Waiting for more.




Yours, Shep.
Oh, so you admire the Czech Republic? I know tons of Czechs living all over the North East. In fact, my neighbors are Czech. You know what's funny? Almost all of them were brought up as Atheists or with no exposure to religion, but all of their children are baptized and enrolled in Catholic schools! They even bring their kids to Church on Sunday so they can have what their parents coouldn't! Shows you how different American, Canadian, etc, Czechs are than the ones still living in Europe. Now that I think about it, thank God I live in the U.S.! All I can say is you would hate living here. Everyone from the President, to the Mayors and Politicians of New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc are religious! God Bless America.

Oh, and Estonia? Don't get too excited. Most people on this side of the Atlantic can't even point it out on the map.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #36
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To all Poles fed up with Christianity in Poland, travel or live overseas for a while and see if you like it.
I never understood one thing and maybe this can be cleared up. Almost all western European nations have a separation of church and state. It's not cool to be religious now a days (no crucifixes!). Fair enough. But why do they invite immigrants from mostly Islamic countries where the citizens are extremely religious? And they get everything that they want (mosques going up everywhere). You end up with a p'ussy, passive population and one that would kill for their religion. Does anyone see any problems here?

Last edited by rychlik; June 18th, 2010 at 12:59 AM.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 01:11 AM   #37
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To all Poles fed up with Christianity in Poland, travel or live overseas for a while and see if you like it.
I never understood one thing and maybe this can be cleared up. Almost all western European nations have a separation of church and state. It's not cool to be religious now a days (no crucifixes!). Fair enough. But why do they invite immigrants from mostly Islamic countries where the citizens are extremely religious? And they get everything that they want (mosques going up everywhere). You end up with a p'ussy, passive population and one that would kill for their religion. Does anyone see any problems here?
I don't get it either!!! Most of the Polish forumers have never been to the States or Canada so they don't understand. They look up to Estonia and Sweden, which are countries most Americans or Canadians could give two shits about!
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Old June 18th, 2010, 01:30 AM   #38
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I don't get it either!!! Most of the Polish forumers have never been to the States or Canada so they don't understand. They look up to Estonia and Sweden, which are countries most Americans or Canadians could give two shits about!
Exactly. One thing to add- Poland is one of the most successful, if not the most successful post communist countries. Other struggling nations should be looking up to it. They were the only country to avoid recession! The difference in standard of living for a Pole, Czech and Estonian is not very significant.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 01:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by euromerican View Post
Oh, so you admire the Czech Republic? I know tons of Czechs living all over the North East. In fact, my neighbors are Czech. You know what's funny? Almost all of them were brought up as Atheists or with no exposure to religion, but all of their children are baptized and enrolled in Catholic schools! They even bring their kids to Church on Sunday so they can have what their parents coouldn't!
"If you have the delusion
that you're Napoleon, it must be fairly a lonely feeling
because nobody else agrees with you. Your faith that you are Napoleon
needs a lot of shoring up. But these people here, thousands of people all
have exactly the same delusion, and that must give wonderful reinforcement to their faith."
- Richard Dawkins, The root of all evil.

That's how it works. Of course it's easier to live in a conviction that there is a God, but isn't bracing truth better than false hope?

Quote:
Originally Posted by euromerican View Post
All I can say is you would hate living here. Everyone from the President, to the Mayors and Politicians of New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc are religious!
Oh, be serious. That's nothing wrong with it, in Poland the situation looks exactly the same. And why should I hate living there? I have nothing against if someone is a believer or not, it's his own choice. I just think that we should separate church and the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by euromerican View Post
Oh, and Estonia? Don't get too excited. Most people on this side of the Atlantic can't even point it out on the map.
They shouldn't be proud then. lol

Generally, I think that you probably didn't understand my statement at all, because your arguments don't even refer to mine ones.

The human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucinations. In my mind, we should reject this primitive superstitions...



Kind regards, Shep.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 02:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shep View Post
"If you have the delusion
that you're Napoleon, it must be fairly a lonely feeling
because nobody else agrees with you. Your faith that you are Napoleon
needs a lot of shoring up. But these people here, thousands of people all
have exactly the same delusion, and that must give wonderful reinforcement to their faith."
- Richard Dawkins, The root of all evil.

That's how it works. Of course it's easier to live in a conviction that there is a God, but isn't bracing truth better than false hope?



Oh, be serious. That's nothing wrong with it, in Poland the situation looks exactly the same. And why should I hate living there? I have nothing against if someone is a believer or not, it's his own choice. I just think that we should separate church and the state.



They shouldn't be proud then. lol

Generally, I think that you probably didn't understand my statement at all, because your arguments don't even refer to mine ones.

The human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucinations. In my mind, we should reject this primitive superstitions...



Kind regards, Shep.
Not even gunna bother with your "enlightenment" caus this conversation is gunna go on forever. Let's get back to Warsaw.
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