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Old July 6th, 2008, 04:57 PM   #121
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Load of old bollocks if you ask me.

The benefit of the Routemaster design was the open stage at the back, which allowed you to board & alight the buses anywhere as long as they were stationary (and not even then half the time). This, the overriding feature that set the RM apart, is illegal on any new bus for health & safety reasons.

Therefore dead in the water... What we're being asked to design is a new design for a double decker which will no doubt make a pathetic effort to look a bit like an old RM. There are loads of brand new double deckers with attractive and modern designs, we don't need a crappy RM-a-like pastiche without the main benefit of the RM design.
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Old July 6th, 2008, 05:45 PM   #122
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From that website:
Quote:
Whole-bus class entries must include a number of key features:

* A double-decker bus with one or more internal staircases
* An open-access platform at the rear near-side corner (similar to that on the old Routemaster)
* It must have at least one other entrance or exit with double doors
* Allow for a second crew member
* It must be fully accessible and comply with the Vehicle Specification Guidelines
* It must be red!
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/...on/page-3.aspx
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Old July 6th, 2008, 05:51 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X38 View Post
Hydrogen buses!
The Belgian bus constructor Vanhoor devolops them.
Hydrogen buses are horrendously expensive to run and have less space for passengers because of the bulky power mechanisms. If the London bus fleet was hydrogen powered youd have to put the fares up.
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Old July 6th, 2008, 07:56 PM   #124
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Weird. The open platforms are potential death-traps (even if they are very practical)... It beggars belief that an organisation would invite legal action upon themselves by going out of their way to incorporate a proven lethal feature into new buses.

Not only have numerous people fallen off them and died, but numerous people have stepped off them into oncoming traffic. It goes against every logical health & safety argument about making risk 'ALARP' (as low as reasonably practicable). Every death or injury related to open stages on new buses could be deemed eminently preventable and therefore TFL or the bus operator liable.

To me it smacks of Boris trying to make it look like he's doing something about the pre-election promise of reintroducing Routemasters which at the time presumably he never thought he'd be held to account for.
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Old July 6th, 2008, 08:29 PM   #125
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But you gotta admit we all looked pretty damn cool hitchin' onto them the ways we used to...sigh...they revealed many a genuinely-GQ-ish brute, those busses did
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Old July 6th, 2008, 11:32 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droden View Post
Hydrogen buses are horrendously expensive to run and have less space for passengers because of the bulky power mechanisms. If the London bus fleet was hydrogen powered youd have to put the fares up.
Yes, yes, I know, I know.
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Old July 7th, 2008, 12:15 AM   #127
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This is totally pointless and will never happen anyway. As said, just to show that boris has acted on his promise. IE. a total waste of public money.
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Old July 7th, 2008, 12:20 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
But you gotta admit we all looked pretty damn cool hitchin' onto them the ways we used to...sigh...they revealed many a genuinely-GQ-ish brute, those busses did
Don't get me wrong, I loved the Routemasters... But they are inescapably incompatible with the modern litigious and health & safety aware world we live in.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 02:30 AM   #129
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With the correct software that could be won easily. I might even enter it because it looks so easy. Am sure loads of others will as well and am sure alot will look the same.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #130
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Ok how about some ideas then?

Some buses have screens on them. As well as showing the CCTV and annoying adverts these should show the buses location on map that includes places of interest and road names.
There should also be a touch screen where you can access the main parts of the TFL website including journey planner.

Often you don't know exactly where to get off, or what that place looks like. You could plan your route online before leaving or by mobile (or input your destination to on-board touch screen), then when you touch your Oyster card on the readre by the touch screen up would come the map showing the buses current location relative to where you should get off, plus photos of that stop. The system could also alert you some how when the bus reaches that point.
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Old July 8th, 2008, 05:04 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
But they are inescapably incompatible with the modern litigious and health & safety aware world we live in.
I know.....over there you're better at it than we are over here (seriously).
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Old July 8th, 2008, 10:07 PM   #132
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Well it's a nice idea and I like the fact anyone can come up with a design - not some overpriced consultancy firm...

but Mayor Boris soon has to make a decision about London's single deck Bendy Buses... I think they're great, but he has whipped up a campaign against them and it will be political egg on face to keep them...
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Old July 9th, 2008, 11:31 PM   #133
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Bendies are to be phased out, the 38 (the busiest route) is one of the first to go next year as Johnson refuses to renew the contract (so it will be regular doubles serving it).

Which is funny, because right now they are digging up roads along the whole route making it more bendy compatible! http://www.busroute38.co.uk/newoxford.shtml

The most entertaining part of this is the plan to 'improve traffic' by making shaftsbury avenue 4 meters narrower... This must be a new definition of the word improve that I am not familiar with.

And what kind of competent company is going to do millions of pounds of development work for a chance at a prise of £25k!

Peter Hendy is trying to make the best of it, can't blame him, but he knows that this will lead to chaos. People are going to be mad when double deckers come back to some of these routes - they bunch up because of the dwell times, the drivers refuse to stop when they regard them as full and they just don't have the capacity for the red arrow routes or the major routes like the 38 and 25.

In summary then - Boris, I disagree with you, I look forward to being smug in 2012 when London will realise, but that's a small conciliation for messing up a city I care about. Spend more time google searching people you want to hire, and less time messing with the decisions of experts who know what they are doing.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 10:41 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
Bendies are to be phased out, the 38 (the busiest route) is one of the first to go next year as Johnson refuses to renew the contract (so it will be regular doubles serving it).

Which is funny, because right now they are digging up roads along the whole route making it more bendy compatible! http://www.busroute38.co.uk/newoxford.shtml

The most entertaining part of this is the plan to 'improve traffic' by making shaftsbury avenue 4 meters narrower... This must be a new definition of the word improve that I am not familiar with.

And what kind of competent company is going to do millions of pounds of development work for a chance at a prise of £25k!

Peter Hendy is trying to make the best of it, can't blame him, but he knows that this will lead to chaos. People are going to be mad when double deckers come back to some of these routes - they bunch up because of the dwell times, the drivers refuse to stop when they regard them as full and they just don't have the capacity for the red arrow routes or the major routes like the 38 and 25.

In summary then - Boris, I disagree with you, I look forward to being smug in 2012 when London will realise, but that's a small conciliation for messing up a city I care about. Spend more time google searching people you want to hire, and less time messing with the decisions of experts who know what they are doing.
Is that for real?!

Withdrawing bendies will be a bloodbath: journey times will double during busy periods and we'll be back to waiting to let 2 or 3 packed buses go past before we can get on during the rush hour.

For their faults, bendies are highly efficient 'cattle trucks' for shifting the huge numbers of people using routes like the 38 and 25 quickly. Relying on every customer boarding at the front one by one and touching in might be good for revenue, but it makes dwell times painfully slow... And traditional double deckers have nowhere near the capacity of a bendy so you need twice as many (defeating the recouped revenue through higher operating costs).

If I were to design a bus for London I'd go for a hybrid between the two: an articulated bus but a bit shorter than the current 18m bendy. Still 3 sets of doors, but also with a top deck with stairs front and back. Seats upstairs, minimal seating downstairs. The bus would be DDA compliant because mobility impaired can go downstairs. It can fulfil the cattle truck function in the peak, but be a more traditional comfortable double decker off-peak. And above all else, it would have air con!
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Old July 12th, 2008, 04:26 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
Bendies are to be phased out, the 38 (the busiest route) is one of the first to go next year as Johnson refuses to renew the contract (so it will be regular doubles serving it).

Which is funny, because right now they are digging up roads along the whole route making it more bendy compatible! http://www.busroute38.co.uk/newoxford.shtml
Maybe they're going to introduce the double bendy instead? I've only ever seen them in Utrecht, Netherlands so far but if you want to use these, some minor road modification is definitely necessary.

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Old July 12th, 2008, 06:29 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Weird. The open platforms are potential death-traps (even if they are very practical)... It beggars belief that an organisation would invite legal action upon themselves by going out of their way to incorporate a proven lethal feature into new buses.
Legal action? Is the UK already the US? Where is the self responsibility? If a sign says its forbidden to use the entrance when the bus is going to leave or already or still driving as well as that one should keep oneself behind some security line, its ones own fault if one ignores that.

At least that would be common sense.

Having that said, there are of course good reasons for closed doors, but I would be surprised if possible legal actions should be among them. But after all I don't know the British legal system either.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 12:31 PM   #137
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Maybe they're going to introduce the double bendy instead? I've only ever seen them in Utrecht, Netherlands so far but if you want to use these, some minor road modification is definitely necessary.

No, I think it's pretty clear Boris is against any type of bendy.

The above bus is totally impractical for London, it's simply too long. The current 18M bendy is too long as it is.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 12:33 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Legal action? Is the UK already the US? Where is the self responsibility? If a sign says its forbidden to use the entrance when the bus is going to leave or already or still driving as well as that one should keep oneself behind some security line, its ones own fault if one ignores that.

At least that would be common sense.

Having that said, there are of course good reasons for closed doors, but I would be surprised if possible legal actions should be among them. But after all I don't know the British legal system either.
Warnings sufficed on old Routmasters, but I suspect if an open stage was incorporated into a new bus there is scope for legal action as it could be easily demonstrated risk was not made 'as low as reasonably practicable'.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 12:49 PM   #139
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good list of all the contract dates here: http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2008/07/...-gear-engaged/

Guardian reports that contracts will not be renewed here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...us.routemaster

I think your idea for a shorter artic is not bad at all, I'll even take a double decker if someone can put three doors and barely any seas downstairs - which becomes more possible as we move toward electric traction (diesel generated or other) so the drive train becomes more flexible.

Open platform means you can not crush load - that's why I'm against it, that and the random pedestrians launching them into the cycle lanes willy nilly.
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Old July 13th, 2008, 06:49 PM   #140
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Borrowed from London Connections blog (hope ok Mr Thant):
Quote:
The bus is required to be a double decker and articulation is specifically banned. It'll have an open-rear platform plus at least one other door, each with Oyster readers. There's no stated requirement for either of them to be supervised, making it potentially as much of a free-for-all as bendy buses. However, a second crew member is a requirement of the design.

The big surprise is the maximum length allowed - 13.5m, roughly the same as the giant Skyliner coaches used by The Oxford Tube and National Express. A Routemaster is about 8 metres, an ordinary modern double decker 10 metres and a bendy bus 18 metres.
Other feature ideas I have:
1) I wonder if you the conductor could have a device to detect the Oyster cards nearby that haven't been bleeped?! Probably not with the current technology.

2) Fold down seats that cannot be put down during busy times - to maximise standing room. The lock could be overriden by the conductor to so those needing a seat could have one.
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