Taipei Songshan Airport 台北松山機場

[Taipei Walker]

Originally Posted by Pangu

The difference between KIA and TSA is that the former, as suggested by others, would be competing directly against TTIA whereas TSA is complimenting TTIA.

TTIA would remain the main international gateway into Taiwan from Europe, North & South Americas, Australia... etc. where as TSA serves more regional flights such as to and from mainland China, South Korea, Japan... etc.

The same scenario exists all over the world.

Now KIA can also act like a regional international airport like TSA without any problems.

Now I see no point in separating regional and long distance flights into 2 airports - we also have enough examples of such cases (Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Hong Kong, Bangkok, Dubai - just to name a few), there is large capacity in Taoyuan which can be easily utilized by regional flights. And the space which Songshan uses can be utilized in much more economic way.

[Pangu]

Originally Posted by Taipei Walker

Now I see no point in separating regional and long distance flights into 2 airports - we also have enough examples of such cases (Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Hong Kong, Bangkok, Dubai - just to name a few), there is large capacity in Taoyuan which can be easily utilized by regional flights. And the space which Songshan uses can be utilized in much more economic way.

I'm sure for every city you name that only has one international airport I can name another with two or more, LA, SF, NY and my hometown of Houston comes to mind. But of course we shouldn't do something just because other cities do (or don't do) it.

[williamchung7]

There are big competition among Aisan airport. Everybody is getting ready for future aviation market, that is why they try to make break through by freedom right, well operation and expand their infrastructure.

As far as I try to do study and research in this area, however I am not expert or scholar in this area. But more I learn from my research throug different sources (such as database, report, research, AIC, discussion...etc) more I think it is about all five things let Taoyuan International Airport does not have enough foreign traffic. 1.air freedom right negotiation 2. airport operation 3.commercial business 4.airplane technology 5. aviation market They are the actually keys for Taoyuan International Airport. These five points are real causes for Taoyuan International Airport decline. Closing down Shong Shan airport certainly will be great for Taoyuan International Airport. But it does not solve the problem which really pull TIA out the Aisan hub development. TIA still need to face these challenges.

In past decades, political issues let Taoyuan International Airport down. How many foreign airlines have pulled out ? I have to say at least twenty. It is related to five elements I have mentioned. Like for air freedom rights. TIA does not have routine direct flights to China until 2008 because previous governments do not open 1st freedom right and air space. Both cargo and passengers jets from Taiwan has to use Hong Kong International Airport as transit hub to go to China. It is same happen for import. What I found is that Hong Kong International Airport take advantage on it. Use it as one of the cornerstones to build a real Aisan hub which Taiwan try to do. It is in their recent report and mention it a lot time.

Now Taoyuan International Airport finally get direct flight, but the problem is it is not enough for future development. What I mean is that Chinese government does not allow chinese citizens use Taoyuan International Airport as transit airport to go other destinations. It is one of priorities need to be solved. Our government need to break through no matter who win next year election or it is no way to talk about international hub.

Step by stey, stone by stone. It is the first step.

I does not talk about Airport operation, airplane technology and rest of keys yet. These need more research, however I have got some basic ideas.

[Awesome.e]

I agree with you William. I think the most important problem is Air freedom negotiation and political problem. But I think cross strait flights made it worse for other foreign flights to compete with Chinese flights. I was booking a flight back to Taiwan and the cheapest one was from Dubai to Shanghai then to Taoyuan instead of my usual Singapore or Cathay pacific airline. This situation will get worst after both side of the Taiwan strait drop their air tariffs. Taiwans aviation authority should think of a quick way to prevent this from happening. Or else other international airlines will loose their competitiveness. The main problem with many airlines pulling out is because of political pressures from China. For example South African airways pulled out direct flights to Taoyuan in the late 90s because they stop diplomatic ties with Taiwan and changed it to Beijing because of our stubborn One China policy.

[williamchung7]

Originally Posted by Awesome.e

I agree with you William. I think the most important problem is Air freedom negotiation and political problem. But I think cross strait flights made it worse for other foreign flights to compete with Chinese flights. I was booking a flight back to Taiwan and the cheapest one was from Dubai to Shanghai then to Taoyuan instead of my usual Singapore or Cathay pacific airline. This situation will get worst after both side of the Taiwan strait drop their air tariffs. Taiwans aviation authority should think of a quick way to prevent this from happening. Or else other international airlines will loose their competitiveness. The main problem with many airlines pulling out is because of political pressures from China. For example South African airways pulled out direct flights to Taoyuan in the late 90s because they stop diplomatic ties with Taiwan and changed it to Beijing because of our stubborn One China policy.

I have a lot of gap in this area so I don't know how to prevent it. Now we are discussing how to move forward, it is really diffcult to discuss as most people are not aviation or airport expert.

But I guess to prevent it, Evan and China Airlines certainly play key part. Local airlines always play big role as it choose airport as center hub or airline hub. And I also believe economy and investment environment also play key part.

[kalifese]

this songshan airport renovation has been a real big disappointment. the fact that they did such a basic, cheap-looking job is a testament to the govt's lack of long-term innovative vision and to why taiwan's airports have lost so much competitiveness. you just cannot compare an airport like this to other secondary airports in chinese cities where everything is spanking brand new and top-notch design - most of them being foreign-designed of course. if taiwan is serious about competing with other global airports (and industries in general) they have to spend the big bucks and have the grand vision. they just dont have it!

[Taipei Walker]

Originally Posted by Pangu

I'm sure for every city you name that only has one international airport I can name another with two or more, LA, SF, NY and my hometown of Houston comes to mind. But of course we shouldn't do something just because other cities do (or don't do) it.

I am not against having 2 international airport, it is just a different strategy. But we have to consider the conditions we have - Songshan is in the city center, sitting on a valuable land with no room for expansion, only small aircrafts can land and take off there. Is this the same case for other cities you mentioned?

And there is a lot of capacity in Taoyuan, room for third terminal as well as room for expansion towards the sea (even reclamation is possible if necessary).

[lolstebbo]

Originally Posted by kalifese

this songshan airport renovation has been a real big disappointment. the fact that they did such a basic, cheap-looking job is a testament to the govt's lack of long-term innovative vision and to why taiwan's airports have lost so much competitiveness. you just cannot compare an airport like this to other secondary airports in chinese cities where everything is spanking brand new and top-notch design - most of them being foreign-designed of course. if taiwan is serious about competing with other global airports (and industries in general) they have to spend the big bucks and have the grand vision. they just dont have it!

I don't know about "cheap-looking". (1) The renovation isn't completely (at least AFAIK). (2) While it definitely looks "basic", it looks clean, polished, and new (the renovated parts, at least). Looking at how T2 turned out (and boy is it a drastic change from when I saw it two years ago), T1 will look fine when it's complete.

[Taihoku_Formosa]

Originally Posted by Taipei Walker

I am not against having 2 international airport, it is just a different strategy. But we have to consider the conditions we have - Songshan is in the city center, sitting on a valuable land with no room for expansion, only small aircrafts can land and take off there. Is this the same case for other cities you mentioned?

And there is a lot of capacity in Taoyuan, room for third terminal as well as room for expansion towards the sea (even reclamation is possible if necessary).

Yeah..this reminds me of an example that is often brought up in Taiwan for this kind of discussion.
Some people argue that Tokyo has 2 airports and compare Songshan Airport to Haneda Airport. However, they ignore the fact that Japan is such a big country and Tokyo has a large population, so the domestic airport is still needed. On the other hand, 90% of Taiwan's population live on the western side of Taiwan, and HSR is convenient enough. Also, Haneda sits on the outskirts of the city, and the location is on a reclaimed land besides Tokyo Bay, while Songshan is inside of downtown or city center area.

Just outside of Songshan Airport
Outside of the airport

500m away from Songshan Airport

[lolstebbo]

Originally Posted by Taihoku_Formosa

Yeah..this reminds me of an example that is often brought up in Taiwan for this kind of discussion.
Some people argue that Tokyo has 2 airports and compare Songshan Airport to Haneda Airport. However, they ignore the fact that Japan is such a big country and Tokyo has a large population, so the domestic airport is still needed. On the other hand, 90% of Taiwan's population live on the western side of Taiwan, and HSR is convenient enough. Also, Haneda sits on the outskirts of the city, and the location is on a reclaimed land besides Tokyo Bay, while Songshan is inside of downtown or city center area.

How about Seoul, then? They have both ICN and GMP.

[Awesome.e]

I don't think there is point debating about if Songshan should go or not now. Lets talk about it in 5-10years time

I personally would like to see Songshan go but Songshan does have it's advantages. It was just built at an odd location and the city expanded in the wrong direction. thats all i can say. Songshan is located right at the heart of the city but other "city to city" airports (shanghai, tokyo, london-gatwick, Seoul) are not right at the heart of the city. The airport is right next to Neihu and Xinyi, which will limit cities development. DPP proposed a park on the airport site which will free up airspace and height restrictions around Taipei which should be Taipei's long term vision but KMTs intercity business hub idea will bring short term benefits to the economy. The biggest mistake that they made is the airport express MRTs route and speed. 35min ride is way too long for an airport express compare to others (Hong Kong and London-Heathrow) and the ministry of transport said they cant do anything about it because the route has already been drawn and construction has already begun. I think in the medium to long term (maybe with conjunction to the development of T3), They should extend a branch of the THSR to the airport where the train can leave from Taoyuan and Taipei where both stations having the same "checkin" system. But this all depends on governments commitment and budget.. just a proposal... let me know what u guys think?

[Taihoku_Formosa]

Originally Posted by lolstebbo

How about Seoul, then? They have both ICN and GMP.

You still don't get the point after my last post?

Gimpo International Airport(Google Satellite) is on the outskirts of the city surrounded by farm lands .
while Songshan... please check on my last post.



__________________________________________________
I posted this before(I really like to post timelines, which can really clear things a lot) :

2007/11/07 行政院
˙院會通過放寬松山機場限建
2006/12 郝龍斌 國民黨台北市長參選人
˙<b>原贊成廢機場改成公園</b>，後提出將松山機場改為兩岸直航機場
2006/12 宋楚瑜 親民黨台北市長參選人
˙松山機場成三通直航機場
2006/12 謝長廷 民進黨台北市長參選人
˙廢除松山機場，改為首都中央公園
2002/12 馬英九 國民黨台北市長尋連任
˙松山機場成為兩岸直航機場
2002/12 李應元 民進黨台北市長參選人
˙廢除松山機場，改建為公園
1998/12 馬英九 國民黨台北市長參選人
˙支持遷建松山機場以解決周邊噪音問題
註：除放寬限建案外，其餘政見全未兌現
資料來源：《蘋果》採訪整理 2007
+
國民黨台北市長候選人馬英九今早走訪中山區的濱江市場，並對中山區發展提出願景，馬英九表示，在他當選後，將積極檢討松山機場遷建問題，他認為，在高鐵完工後，松山機場遷建應該可以獲得認同。
11/25/1998聯合晚報
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=612828&page=5
As you can see the turning point is 2002.
It's really a political game. In 2002, Ma wanted to run for another turn, and the central government had switched to a different party(different from Ma) in 2000. Ma just wanted to make the central government bad(Taiwan's economic was bad during the time(911 and tw internal political turmoil) They try to make the"direct flights to China" like a life safer for Taiwan(pretty much like ECFA in 2010). I think you know how politic works.
Why and how?
Do you know the airports are operated by the central government instead of the local governments? Some forumer mentioned about Kaohsiung's Chen, but don't realized that she is in charge of urban planning of the city, but the site of the airport and operation is not controllable by the city government. They can give suggestions of course. The same situation applies to Ma when he was a mayor.

It is not simply wanting to keep the airport or not...
I believe most forumers here would support of removing the airport; however, I believe a even higher percentage of Taipei citizens would support keeping it... why? because the politicians they support say so.

I support direct flights; however, I really hate when the airports other than Taoyuan(Taipei),Ching Chuang Kang(Taichung), or Siaogang(Kaohsiung), request for direct flights. The most recent news is about Tainan's mayor talking about that... (most Taiwan's major cities are talking about building a dome stadium...,but...)

[williamchung7]

I use to hate other airports request direct fligth, but I feel I am foolish and childish. It is rediculous selfish.

The real question is not about other airports in Taiwan request direct flights, the real question is what are their purposes. Taichung international airport show that it has such demand for direct flight to China. It has reached 1 million passenger traffic already and it is still raising. It is regional international airport will not overtake TIA. TIA is only international airport have flight cross different continents. It is clear that they act as different airport. For Shongshan Airport, it will be different story. It can be potentially disadvantage and advantage to taipei or northern region development.

Real question for TIA is that why Taoyuan International Airport can not make more flight routes to Europe or USA and other continent and attract foreign airlines rather than just Chinese airline companies. Place all flights to Taoyuan International Airport is not going to solve this challenges TIA has suffered for decades.

TIA need:
1.Bigger Free Trade Zone and cut down the tax rate
2.Comprehensive and completed trasport system connect to near harbours, such as Taipei Port to form inter-model tranportation to improve competition
3.Keep as only airport connect different continent around the world
4.Develop multi-related industry and business service around airport
5.Improve connection between the world and Taiwan and continue develop Taiwan economy
6.Open the market for foreign investors
7.Air freedom right negoitation
8.Commercial service business
9.Airport Company need to be independent from CAA
There are many other things need to do to get TIA back to global competition.

[Awesome.e]

Taiwan Taoyuan International already has a low airport tariff, lowering it wont really solve the problem

[Ganplosive]

THANK YOU all for summing up what I spent 30 minutes writing up but accidentally deleted:

The Taipei-Keelung-Taoyuan Metro Area simply doesn't have the VOLUME necessitating 2 airports, one of which sits right dab in the middle of arguably the most expensive land in all of Taiwan. I mean the T-K-T Metro area only has a population that adds up to what? about 9 million residents? It's a NO-BRAINER!

Beijing City alone with ~19 Million+ people all have to ride roughly 30-50 minutes out to the nearest airport is doing fine, there's absolutely NO reason why the T-K-T metro region needs anymore than Taoyuan International, especially with its upgrades and T-3 project to accommodate ~47 million passengers.

Tokyo Metropolitan area has close to ~35 million people.
LA Metropolitan has close to ~18 million.
NY Metropolitan has close to ~22 million.

the stats just don't compare. Adding up Taoyuan-Taipei-Keelung is already pushing it, and we barely pass 10 million (almost HALF of Taiwan's total population).

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. But alas, yes the debate is no longer about whether or not to remove TSA, perhaps in another 10 years. But those 10 years would mean another 10 years of restricted heights, restricted planning etc. etc.

[Awesome.e]

I landed in Taiwan through Kaohsiung International Airport. I..... Just want to say this...... It's worst than third world! Lol!!! Something must be done to this airport. I cannot believe the city hosted the world games with that airport! Lol! Renovations please! Shocked!

[tr]

Originally Posted by williamchung7

For Taoyuan International airport, I believe open air space of Taiwan strait to foreign airlines is the key to compete HK international airport and other international airport. It is more important than resources allocation. This air space still only open for Chinese and Taiwanese airlines only. For airport hub, it is very important to attract international airlines and try to create more connecting flights. However, the politics still big question for this it.

I think if international airlines can join these air space and have direct route between Taiwan and China. It will boost Taoyuan International airport.

Correct if I make any wrong point.

Foreign airlines are forbidden to fly from Taiwan to China. The PRC considers this to be a domestic route and they, not Taipei, set the rules.

Foreign airlines left Taiwan because there wasn't much demand. When was the last time you heard of a big European company opening a Asia-Pacific HQ in Taipei? Almost every office in Taiwan deals exclusively with the local market. Sure, there are tech companies, but how many engineers or sales staff are jetting off to Germany of Italy each week?

Forget HK, if they don't get their act together soon Taipei will be passed by second and third tier airports in China. Ten years from now Taiwanese passengers may even be transiting in places like Xiamen or Chongqing.

The biggest problem is that the officials in charge of transforming the airports are completely out of touch with reality. For example, Mao Chi-kuo had this to say when asked about the Songshan renovations:

“[Former Taipei EasyCard Corp chairman] Sean Lin (連勝文) said Songshan airport was inferior to Pyongyang airport, I’ve never been to North Korea, but I knew it was not a nice comment. I could only accept it at that time and tried to address it quickly.

Mao added that Taipei airport now has the potential to be one of the world’s best airports"

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiw.../09/2003517871

[kalifese]

Originally Posted by tr

“[Former Taipei EasyCard Corp chairman] Sean Lin (連勝文) said Songshan airport was inferior to Pyongyang airport, I’ve never been to North Korea, but I knew it was not a nice comment. I could only accept it at that time and tried to address it quickly.

Mao added that Taipei airport now has the potential to be one of the world’s best airports"

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiw.../09/2003517871

thats a frickin joke. the songshan airport renovation was such a cheapo renovation. the interiors look like a hospital. and they didnt even renovate the terminal exteriors - at least the front part. it's still the same old aged appearance as before!!

even taoyuan airport can never be among world's best airports - at least not for a very long time at the rate they are developing it and from the grand plans i've seen. i hate politicians who have the nerve to say such stupid things that are so incredibly far from reality and think they can get away from it or dont get flack from it from the media. they should be made to eat their words!!

[ed21x]

Originally Posted by kalifese

thats a frickin joke. the songshan airport renovation was such a cheapo renovation. the interiors look like a hospital. and they didnt even renovate the terminal exteriors - at least the front part. it's still the same old aged appearance as before!!

even taoyuan airport can never be among world's best airports - at least not for a very long time at the rate they are developing it and from the grand plans i've seen. i hate politicians who have the nerve to say such stupid things that are so incredibly far from reality and think they can get away from it or dont get flack from it from the media. they should be made to eat their words!!

Taoyuan airport will not be the world's best because it is not being built from the ground up like those in China. However, at its current development, it will be world class by any standard. From my experience in the rennovated interior parts of T1, there is a lot of dark inlaid wood, stones, moving water, and plants. A very cozy japanese feel, much like the garden on the top floor of the newer SOGO. TT1 is shaping up to have a very unique identity that is very taiwanese, and I wouldn't have that any other way

[cphu]

Originally Posted by kalifese

thats a frickin joke. the songshan airport renovation was such a cheapo renovation. the interiors look like a hospital. and they didnt even renovate the terminal exteriors - at least the front part. it's still the same old aged appearance as before!!

even taoyuan airport can never be among world's best airports - at least not for a very long time at the rate they are developing it and from the grand plans i've seen. i hate politicians who have the nerve to say such stupid things that are so incredibly far from reality and think they can get away from it or dont get flack from it from the media. they should be made to eat their words!!

At some points I can certainly agree with you; however, I believe the quality of service is more important than the grandeur of outside appearance. There is no way Taoyuan or Songshan airport can compete with newer airports in term of sheer size and impressiveness. But it can certainly compete on the customer service level. Look at New York's JFK, its one of the biggest airports in the world, yet the service is one of the worst, not to mention constant flight delay and cancellation. (My mom just got stuck there for 4 hours before her flight can take off for tw).

These renovations certainly won't make them the best in the world, but at least they are getting newer and better.

And sorry Kalifese for complaining about new york again! :P I still luv this city!