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Old October 23rd, 2013, 08:01 PM   #3141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jconyc View Post
How can you say such a thing when you haven't seen a rendering?
Speak for yourself....I for one am not expecting an eyesore
Interpretation... You know what I mean. From what I've seen so far, I'm not satisfied with this project (like many). BUT when the final render is revealed, perhaps not everything is disappointment.
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Old October 23rd, 2013, 09:55 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by L.A.F.2. View Post
Yeah, I realize that it couldn't be demolished, I just hate that people care about something that hangs 200 feet over it and affects the building itself none other than maybe a shadow at noon.
Or giant icicles falling on it.


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Old October 24th, 2013, 12:36 AM   #3143
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Originally Posted by Shakkur98 View Post
So at a roof height of 1,423 ft, 225 west 57th st is only gonna have 88 floors
The Empire State Building has a roof height of 1,250 ft and has 102 floors
The ceilings or the lobby are going to be really really really high
Floor count is so irrelevant. I don't know how many times I need to say this: Low floor count is better!

And ESB has 103 floors.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 01:22 AM   #3144
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My goodness, reading the last few pages you'd think this community was composed of spoiled little children.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:23 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by hunser View Post
I'll wait for some quality renderings which hopefully then will show all the little details in the design. Then I'll pass my final judgement on this tower. Still, it's really sad how far we've come: everyone hopes for at least a somehow decent design, given those horrible massing models.
I'd just like to address this sentiment for a moment.

I think there's a line of thinking among architecture enthusiasts that says each building is an island. Every design needs to be beautiful and distinctive in its own right. As though these towers are rising in a vacuum.

The thing I like about 225 West 57th, including the massing model and the glimpses of a design we've seen these past few pages, is that it is not overly distinctive. It nestles well into the broader skyline of New York, pairs nicely with 432 Park Ave, and represents a new 'layer' of design for the city.

When you start thinking of every skyscraper as its own unique flower, you end up with Shanghai or Dubai. Interesting, from a design standpoint, but on a larger scale a bit of a mess. A hodgepodge of all different styles, with no cohesion or sense of an overarching plan.

New York is not like that. Each building has been carefully designed to fit within the larger environment. They are contextualized in a way many other cities aren't. Look at Shanghai's Pudong. Each building is beautiful, no question. I think the Shanghai Tower is the pinnacle of contemporary glass architecture. But when you look at the whole district, it is a mess. Nothing sits well, it feels like it has been cobbled together. So much space between structures, so many different architectural schools on display.

This is why I hope 225 W57 is conservative. Boxy. Perhaps even modest. Not every building needs to stun the world.

For example: I think the best new building in NYC at the moment if 4WTC. Individually it is fairly basic. If you took the render and showed it on a white background it would be boring and a bit of a waste. But in the context of the lower Manhattan skyline, and the WTC site itself, it is majestic. 4WTC is beautiful in-situ, not ex-situ. It's slightly blue glass is literally a mirror to the more dynamic and outstanding 1WTC, the showpiece of the site. It represents everything that is good about NYC architecture. It's an almost democratic skyline. No building is more important than the city itself.

So I think a lot of this building's detractors need to step back and consider what 57th Street is going to become. How many Supertalls are we up to now? Three or four? It's going to become a central part of the entire NYC skyline, and therefore each building needs to have a compassion for the structures around it.

The massing model's simplicity at the top and complexity at the bottom create, I think, an interesting blend that works better in the context of the buildings around it. Yes, it looks crap sitting on a desk, all alone. But when you place it on the street, when it is surrounded by its brothers in Midtown, I believe it is beautiful.

Couple that with an interesting exterior finish and it will represent a valuable addition to the neighborhood.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 03:55 PM   #3146
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This is going to be a great tower. It's clearly not a 1,420 foot version of an icon like 400 PAS, but it is a very tall tower with setbacks and unique indentations on its facade.

There is not a city in the world that would not love to have this tower on its skyline (excluding, obviously, historic places like Florence, Lyon, etc.).

Moreover, we're getting iconic super tall towers at the HY, Verre, and Steinway, and we don't even know what's planned for prominent sites like the Park Lane and 650 Madison.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 04:17 PM   #3147
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Theres really nothing great about this tower. Its tall but not remarkably tall, especially when one considers all the tall buildings that will be built near it. Outside of height its nothing more than a gimmicky box. A real waste of potential.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #3148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaean View Post
Theres really nothing great about this tower. Its tall but not remarkably tall, especially when one considers all the tall buildings that will be built near it. Outside of height its nothing more than a gimmicky box. A real waste of potential.
I don't know why people keep bad-mouthing this building...you haven't seen it yet...as for height: it will have the highest roof in NYC...this will NOT be an insignificant building
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Old October 24th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #3149
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This is why I hope 225 W57 is conservative. Boxy. Perhaps even modest. Not every building needs to stun the world.
Here's the thing though. It's not any 200m tower making the background we are talking about. It's 400m fat monster. Maybe even the tallest tower in new york. In general I would agree with you, but not in this case. As this is one of the tallest it's no surprise an exceptional design is expected. The tower will be distinctive by height anyway so it should be too by the design. And exceptional design still can and should be well incorporated into the skyline as a whole. You can't possibly tell me you don't like the Shops proposal for 107 West 57th. That's masterpiece in ny style and that's how it should be done here too.

Of course I won't say as the guy before me this project is missed opportunity simply because I haven't seen the final design yet, but I won't agree that all towers should just be "part of the skyline". Some of them - the tallest ones - should stand out. And not only with height.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #3150
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Theres really nothing great about this tower. Its tall but not remarkably tall, especially when one considers all the tall buildings that will be built near it. Outside of height its nothing more than a gimmicky box. A real waste of potential.
If this were under construction in a certain city on the prairie, residents of that city would be very excited, particularly in light of the cheap boxes that they've been building, which you have defended.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #3151
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Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
Here's the thing though. It's not any 200m tower making the background we are talking about. It's 400m fat monster. Maybe even the tallest tower in new york. In general I would agree with you, but not in this case. As this is one of the tallest it's no surprise an exceptional design is expected. The tower will be distinctive by height anyway so it should be too by the design. And exceptional design still can and should be well incorporated into the skyline as a whole. You can't possibly tell me you don't like the Shops proposal for 107 West 57th. That's masterpiece in ny style and that's how it should be done here too.

Of course I won't say as the guy before me this project is missed opportunity simply because I haven't seen the final design yet, but I won't agree that all towers should just be "part of the skyline". Some of them - the tallest ones - should stand out. And not only with height.
A fair point. However, I choose to look at the situation like this:

It would say a lot about New York, and American skyscraper construction in general, if the (potentially) tallest building in the city turned out to be unremarkable.

New York - like all of America - is in a state of flux right now. It's emerging from dark economic times and is about to enter one of the fastest growing eras of its history. I hope that a 450m skyscraper will not be 'standout' in twenty years time because we will be so used to buildings of far greater height. It won't be long before a US city starts putting together a group of 500m+ towers. That city will almost certainly be New York, possibly Chicago. When that happens, towers like 225 W57 will be the foundation upon which their aesthetics will be built.

I agree that tall buildings should have a standout design. And their construction alone can spur a wave of new projects in the area, making neighborhoods more attractive to top tier developers. But on the other hand, there's a part of me that feels a little, I don't know, mawkish, when talking about 225 W57. Yes, it will be a tall building, possibly the tallest in New York by roof, certainly at the very least one of the tallest in the world. But it will also be about the same height as the Empire State Building. A century of advancement to achieve the same height. Something about that rings of false success.

I know New York can do better, so all of my good cheer and hope is not riding on 225 W57. To me, this building is part of a broader change in the NYC landscape. It is not the building that will dominate the skyline. It will not be noteworthy for decades to come. Because something else is coming. We're still not out of austerity and supertalls are already popping up all over the city. That says to me that in five or ten years, when the economy is really booming, something vast is going to occur in NYC. That's what my hopes are pinned on.

Of course, I want all buildings to be beautiful. And New York is one of the most cohesive and striking cities in the world for architecture. So I agree that a standout design for 255 W57 would be nice. But it's not everything. There was a time when 450m would have been an outrageous, world-shattering design. Now it's pretty average. With China's third and fourth and even fifth cities all building monstrous, 500m+ towers, I think America's first city can do better.

For me, 225 W57 is just a stepping stone to something greater. It's the landing party for an invasion of supertalls in Midtown. All I'm saying is that some people here, and elsewhere, are acting as though this pokey little mixed-use tower by Nordstrom is America's only hope. People were disappointed when the height went down and the cantilever went up. And so on and so forth.

The bottom line is this: expect more from New York and it won't let you down. You could fill the entire front page of the Proposed Supertalls forum with just New York developments. There's no need to put such high expectations on one single tower. New York is not Paris or Shanghai. It's like London, it has two or three main clusters. The city is defined by its variety and breadth, not by a single pinnacle rising above all the rest.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #3152
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That single tower is to be tallest at the moment. You can always wait for something bigger but that'll leave you building average just because in the future there might or might not be something bigger.

And the truth is developers struggle crossing that magic 500m mark. Some projects previously thought to be a hope for something big turns out much lower than expected like the 1 Vanderbilt tower.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #3153
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Quote:
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450m skyscraper will not be 'standout' in twenty years time because we will be so used to buildings of far greater height. It won't be long before a US city starts putting together a group of 500m+ towers. That city will almost certainly be New York, possibly Chicago. When that happens, towers like 225 W57 will be the foundation upon which their aesthetics will be built .
It will take longer than 20 years time for that to happen especially with our current zoning, land marking and nimbyism growing! More like close to 40 years. The boom we are experiencing will not last forever. This is an event in NYC that does not come very often. I don't think I would want to wait that long... I will be wrinkly and ashy & my passion for skyscrapers will probably not be there anymore cuz the only thing I will be concerned is my retirement and worrying about how I'm going to pay for that platinum coffin prepping for that day.

So the design better be good cuz that will be the part of the skyline I will know in my lifetime. Unless medicine advances and we all could live forever. Lol

Btw, welcome to SSC! 2013 has been a heck of a year and 2014 will be even better! Hopefully if the Midtown East Rezoning passes we can extend this boom by another 10 years and hopefully we will have a couple of those 460 + m towers. What is clear, is that 300m are becoming the norm for new projects in NYC moving forward and that is huge. Anyway, plenty to look forward to for the coming year.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:46 PM   #3154
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^ Spot on, this boom won't last forever. I expect the residential market to cool down eventually in the next years. There will be plenty of office construction, but you won't see a 500m+ office tower in New York - not a chance.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:54 PM   #3155
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There always is (and always will be) demand for high-end properties in NY. Construction of these towers will never end. You can't compare NY or London to a typical market like Chicago or Atlanta.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:55 PM   #3156
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Definitely not an office tower but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a serious ~500m mixed use tower proposal sometime in the next few years.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 06:59 PM   #3157
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Definitely not an office tower but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a serious ~500m mixed use tower proposal sometime in the next few years.
True. That could be from the Shvo man himself to Shvo he is better and bigger than Extell and the Donald. It will be his time to shine and let the developer community that it's Shvo time. Hehe
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Old October 24th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #3158
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Anyone who calls this a fat tower is deluded, as it's quite thin. There's not remotely enough square footage on this site for a fat 1420 foot tower. Moreover, SG's white model shows that it's quite slender.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #3159
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That single tower is to be tallest at the moment. You can always wait for something bigger but that'll leave you building average just because in the future there might or might not be something bigger.

And the truth is developers struggle crossing that magic 500m mark. Some projects previously thought to be a hope for something big turns out much lower than expected like the 1 Vanderbilt tower.
Well, 1 Vanderbilt is still far from having a definitively design. The design we've seen I think doesn't yet show the changes it would have with the rezoning of that area, still we don't know the height it will end up being.
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Old October 24th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #3160
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Let's face it, lads. NYC is the world's skyscraper capital. Nothing compares. What other city in the first world has such a boom? None!
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217 west 57th street, 225 west 57th street, central park south, cps, extell, new york, nordstrom tower, nyc, supertall

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