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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #3601
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Education doesn´t really play a role in judging a design (except it´s efficiency) , moreso personal taste, and everyone has a different.

Buildings with a projected height this one has, should have original designs which intergrrate themselves coherend and nicely into the already existing fabric, IMO. And not standout by it´s blatanity. (The massing model for instance)

And i am all for a comitee which decides what should be and what should not be beuild. Otherwise we will have ugly economical driven boring towers in the skyline. Nothing of your mentioned bold and versatile styles of building, but boring sellable boxes this city has enough of.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #3602
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is that the 1424ft the final height of this tower??
or can be changed
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Old December 26th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #3603
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It can be changed.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #3604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalscarr View Post
The general public has no business in judging architecture. People's taste usually suck, they're uneducated, they tend to only appreciate and love what they already know and oppose to anything new. There's so much whining on this forum about towers being too minimal, having no twists, ornaments, crowns, spires and not looking like the ESB. It's a boring argument. We're in the 21 century, not the '30s. New York needs versatility and bold moves. And that is actually what we're getting right now. We don't need an approval process.
"The camel is a horse designed by committee"
NYC doesn't need some committee deciding whether a design is worthy of being built or not.
NYC needs new visions and controversy not mediocracy.
Saying 432 is a nothing special design is like the stereotypical uneducated museum goer criticizing a Mark Rothko painting...'my kid could paint this'
This doesn't mean that you have to like any of the non Art Deco towers. But they have as much right to be on the NY skyline as the ESB or the Chrysler.
Well, I am still entitled to my own opinions as you are to yours and I repeat again - 432 Park is nothing special except for the height. I am not saying that it should not be built or a public committee should do any judgments on the way the building look.

All I am saying is that developers themselves should understand that the work they do should represent something more then just boxes.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 01:12 AM   #3605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germantower View Post
Education doesn´t really play a role in judging a design (except it´s efficiency) , moreso personal taste, and everyone has a different.

Buildings with a projected height this one has, should have original designs which intergrrate themselves coherend and nicely into the already existing fabric, IMO. And not standout by it´s blatanity. (The massing model for instance)

And i am all for a comitee which decides what should be and what should not be beuild. Otherwise we will have ugly economical driven boring towers in the skyline. Nothing of your mentioned bold and versatile styles of building, but boring sellable boxes this city has enough of.
thank you for this post - this is exactly what I mean.

As for the committee... I am not sure this is a good idea the way this article is presenting it. If there will be such a committee, then only to judge not the right to build high, but rather the esthetic values of the tower. And it should not be general public, but rather architects themselves. They as professionals should be able to suggest certain improvements in order to make it better.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 02:51 PM   #3606
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The new era of the New York skyscraper
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmo...rk-skyscraper/

The first time I ever visited New York, the bus from JFK dropped me off in front of Grand Central Terminal. I looked up, and up, and up, at the Chrysler Building towering above me, and I immediately fell in love with a city which so exuberantly celebrated its height and size and weight. Much as I love Chicago, New York will always be the home of the skyscraper for me; no other city has such spectacular examples from all eras, ranging from the Brooklyn Bridge and the Woolworth and Flatiron buildings, through Lever House and the Seagram building, all the way to the newest towers rising both downtown, at the World Trade Center site, as well as uptown, along 57th Street. One of the most awe-inspiring architectural experiences in the world is to visit the little-known but truly amazing top room of the art deco BNY Mellon building at 1 Wall Street, with its three-storey-high silver ceilings and its unrivaled views to the north, south, east, and west.

In a sign of the times, that room — along with the rest of the building — might be for sale; one broker told Bloomberg that it “could be spectacular resi”. For corporations looking to squeeze a large number of people into a single building, super-tall towers don’t make a lot of sense: they waste too much space on service shafts. But for trophy-hunting billionaires, it seems that views are everything, these days — especially if the views in question are of Central Park. Build a high-ceilinged, full-floor, ultra-luxe apartment a thousand feet in the sky and even closer to Central Park South, and it seems that there’s almost no limit to how much you can charge for it.

From the point of view of skyscraper lovers, this is good news. The richest corporate tenants — the ones in the financial-services industry — tend to want large uninterrupted floor plates for their trading rooms, which often results in dull, uninspired architecture. The world’s plutocrats, by contrast, demand architecture of landmark status, something befitting any major new addition to the New York skyline. On top of that, the premium commanded by full-floor apartments means that the new towers tend to be very slender — and as a general rule, thinner towers tend to be more beautiful.

That said, the owners buying into these new towers are pretty unsympathetic. For all their riches, they tend to pay very little in the way of taxes, they don’t interact much with the rest of the city (if they did, they’d never want to live on 57th Street), and they generally leave their apartments empty for nearly all of the year.

This is a dynamic which has proved particularly damaging in the case of my native London, where street life in many central residential neighborhoods has diminished almost to the point of nonexistence: fewer and fewer people actually live in those places any more. It’s much less of a worry in New York: no one’s concerned about residential density on 57th Street being too low, and in any case the caprices of US Customs and Border Protection tend to scare away a lot of what the English call the non-doms.

Still, the critics are out. Jim Windolf spent 3,000 words and a very chilly day in Central Park bellyaching about the shadows these towers might cast in late fall; and now Michael Kimmelman has weighed in, saying that New York should not “consign its silhouette to private builders” and should instead force all new skyscrapers to run a gantlet of community groups and public review.

The fact is, of course, that all the best skyscrapers were built by private builders, often in the face of substantial public opposition. And public skyscrapers are generally worse, not better: just look at the original World Trade Center, built by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, with its destruction of Radio Row and Greenwich Street, its forbidding windswept plaza, and its inability to attract tenants for decades after it was built. In general, if the public is asked whether they want any new skyscraper, the answer will always be “no” — even as they love the iconic tall buildings they’ve lived with for years. (There was a general consensus that something should restore the skyline after the World Trade Center was demolished, but that’s the exception that proves the rule.)

Kimmelman, in particular, seems to think — with no real evidence to support him — that public review would improve the quality of architecture built — that it would allow the towers he likes (111 West 57th Street, 432 Park Avenue) while disallowing the towers he doesn’t like. The Nordstrom Tower, for example, features a cantilever which, Kimmeleman says, turns it into “a giant with one foot raised, poised to squash a poodle”). That’s certainly not the way I would describe the renderings we’ve seen so far. But no one likes a massive new building project going ahead in their neighborhood, especially not when they can turn the whole thing into a zero-sum game of proles versus plutocrats, as Windolf does. (“It struck me as unfair that, sometime next year, someone who paid $90 million for a glass-walled, floor-through residence will lounge in full sunshine while the old man will have less light of his own.”)

Skyscrapers are a perfect emblem of capitalism — they destroy what came before, in order to create something new. Sometimes the change is for the better, and sometimes it’s for the worse — but a city where nothing new gets built is a dead city, which might have nostalgic value to tourists, but which is never going to be a driver of global commerce.

New York is a mature city, where it’s already extremely expensive to build — the barriers to constructing new buildings are high enough, especially considering all the (entirely reasonable) preservation rules. Kimmelman and Windolf would add further hurdles still, concerning such things as shadows and view corridors. But neither makes much sense, in New York — a city which has been building long canyons of tall buildings for the best part of a century now. The only view corridors which make any sense, in Manhattan, are the big avenues — and ever since the Pan Am building went up, no one’s going to build in the middle of an avenue. And the official statement from the Central Park Conservancy, on the subject of shadows, seems exactly right to me:

Since the Park’s 1857 creation, numerous buildings have been established on its perimeter. Depending on the time and day of season, those buildings sometimes cast shadows. In the Conservancy’s 33-year experience of Park restoration and maintenance, these shadows have not significantly affected either the Park’s horticulture, which we are responsible for maintaining, or significantly impacted the experience of more than 40 million people who visit the Park annually.

Yes, the Conservancy is conflicted, here — its board includes major property developers. Still, the views of the New York skyline from Central Park are a large part of its perennial appeal — the varied street walls along the four perimeters, as well as the range of buildings visible beyond them. New York is and must be a living city, and right now it happens to have encountered a combination of special factors (an exuberant market, the rise of the billionaire class, the Central Park views, New York’s idiosyncratic zoning laws). These factors, says Carol Willis of Columbia University, have conspired to create special entities similar, in a way, to “rare flowers that can grow only in the Galapagos Islands” — specific architectural creatures native to Manhattan.

In a globalizing and homogenizing world, any kind of new architectural vernacular, unique to a certain city and a certain time, should in general be given the benefit of the doubt. I’m no great fan myself of Christian de Portzamparc’s One57 myself. But I do think that New York City is a city of skyscrapers; that it’s self-defeating for any city of skyscrapers to stop building such things; and that if you’re going to be building new skyscrapers, you’re never going to bat 1000. Better we have a living city with a couple of less-than-perfect buildings, than a stifled one governed by nostalgists and Nimbys.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #3607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
thank you for this post - this is exactly what I mean.

As for the committee... I am not sure this is a good idea the way this article is presenting it. If there will be such a committee, then only to judge not the right to build high, but rather the esthetic values of the tower. And it should not be general public, but rather architects themselves. They as professionals should be able to suggest certain improvements in order to make it better.
Most people who live in New York aren't architects. Any panel that claims to be representing the aesthetic interests of the city's population needs to be representative.

'They're professionals' is an argument that has been made time and time again to excuse the worst overreaches of authority in history.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #3608
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Originally Posted by generalscarr View Post
The general public has no business in judging architecture. People's taste usually suck, they're uneducated, they tend to only appreciate and love what they already know and oppose to anything new. There's so much whining on this forum about towers being too minimal, having no twists, ornaments, crowns, spires and not looking like the ESB. It's a boring argument. We're in the 21 century, not the '30s. New York needs versatility and bold moves. And that is actually what we're getting right now. We don't need an approval process.
"The camel is a horse designed by committee"
NYC doesn't need some committee deciding whether a design is worthy of being built or not.
NYC needs new visions and controversy not mediocracy.
Saying 432 is a nothing special design is like the stereotypical uneducated museum goer criticizing a Mark Rothko painting...'my kid could paint this'
This doesn't mean that you have to like any of the non Art Deco towers. But they have as much right to be on the NY skyline as the ESB or the Chrysler.
The other extreme is just as counterproductive. For every uninformed Joe who says 'my kid could paint this', there are just as many snobbish art creeps who assign meaning to things for the sake of their own prestige. Art is complex and the uninformed opinion is a crucial aspect of artistic interpretation.

The last thing a big American city needs is free reign to build anything. American society is gaudy and grotesque. Without someone holding back the reigns, New York would become just another Las Vegas. Just another playground of mismatched nonsense built to catch the eye rather than the mind.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 04:20 PM   #3609
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American society is gaudy and grotesque. Without someone holding back the reigns
Stop already. American society contains many disparate elements, from the reserved and refined to the incredibly tacky. And it's "reins", not "reigns", in this context.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #3610
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Well you just said it yourself, America does run the whole range of style, from reserved and refined to tacky. Your words, not mine. So what do you think is the cause for the refined nature of its better architecture? I think it's a higher tier of decision making, the exact kind of architectural committee you seem to be against. A 'build anything' approach results in tacky, not refined, styles being developed. Because the buildings are self-serving, they have no debt to the city, just to their own appearance. Architecture is art, naturally, but it is also a craft. And it needs to serve the people of the city.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #3611
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Also, thanks for the semantic aside. Great help.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 10:00 PM   #3612
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If we had some committee as that author is suggesting that will decide what kind of designs should be approved for supertalls, then One57 as we all know it today would not exist. At least that is what the author is suggesting.

I and many people think it's a great tower, but because he is an architecture snob & has the platform to brainwash people with his agenda, he will attempt it.

I am sure if he has the opportunity, he would surround himself with like minded critics for this "committee" he is proposing.

He sounds like he hates diversity and would love to see NYC to be boring architecturally which is a shame because NYC people are diverse and that should be reflected in its architecture.

These people think classical music is the only music but what about people that like jazz as I do?? I think one57 is jazz & what is wrong with that??

If such a committee existed in the 1930's, we may not have the ESB which was hated at the time and that would have been a travesty.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #3613
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That's why I am saying that I am not sure about such an idea about committees... It is not going to work the way it should be.
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Old December 28th, 2013, 02:44 AM   #3614
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Calling Mr. Wanda:

It's a matter of time before the Ziegfeld Theatre (141 W 54th St) is developed into a 300m+ tower. It has a perfect sight-line right into Central Park, and it's a site that's already assembled.

P.S.:

http://nypost.com/2012/07/08/manhatt...ncial-trouble/
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Old December 29th, 2013, 08:22 AM   #3615
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great location for a super tall that would be in close proximity to Tower Verre.

Could be a good candidate for Mr. Wanda's $1B + hotel & condos.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 06:45 PM   #3616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
great location for a super tall that would be in close proximity to Tower Verre.

Could be a good candidate for Mr. Wanda's $1B + hotel & condos.
The Chinese are coming! Just what the world capital needed! Investments to start pouring in from the world's second largest economy!
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Old December 29th, 2013, 07:03 PM   #3617
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great location for a super tall that would be in close proximity to Tower Verre.

Could be a good candidate for Mr. Wanda's $1B + hotel & condos.
I agree, and if not, someone else will.
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Old December 29th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #3618
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Also, thanks for the semantic aside. Great help.
You'll learn, kid.
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Old December 30th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #3619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
great location for a super tall that would be in close proximity to Tower Verre.

Could be a good candidate for Mr. Wanda's $1B + hotel & condos.
There is nothing or worth there but the original name of the theater - Ziegfeld. And its size for 1169 people.


Get rid of it and build the tower. Just to make everyone happy build a nice multiplex with the same name in the tower and no one will object.

Original movie theater was a gem, but it is long gone

The original Ziegfeld Theater
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Old December 30th, 2013, 11:43 PM   #3620
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I'll put this garbage here if anyone is interested to read it.

Accidental Skyline by MASNYC (read entire report in link)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/193282206/12/Sources




View South From Central Park with New Development


View North Toward Central Park

They made an effort to show how the shadow effect on the the park during the winter fall/winter months b4 all the developments and after with such developments such as 432PA, One57, Steinway, Nordstrom, TV, 45E60th and 220CPS.


Shadows Across the Park Before and Affer Development (on December 21st)



Shadows Across the Park Before and Affer Development (4 pm on September 21st)


Really not much of a difference. I think the after 4pm images are funny because they show the max effect of these shadows.

Plus around 4:30 the sun sets so all of Manhattan in in the dark anyway. lol
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