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Old October 13th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #5161
SomeKindOfBug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondoniumLex View Post
If you can't understand the relationship between 1776 and the New WTC then what can I say?

This thread is about Nordstrom, lads. Please don't spam it.
The relationship has been appropriated. 1WTC wouldn't rise to 1776ft if the number 1776 wasn't already important to America.

While it's not false to say that 1776 has a relationship to 1WTC, it is misleading to suggest the relationship is the most recognizable one.

Your original post:

Quote:
1776 is a symbolic number related to Sep 11th.
Your wording implies a causal link; when in fact, the way it works is this: September 11th has symbolic links with American patriotism, and 1776 is a potent symbol of said patriotism.

I know it sounds like I'm being semantic, but I'm not. You're simply wrong.

It would be like saying the Stars and Stripes are a symbol of the New England Patriots. Again, you're not wrong, but saying so implies things that simply aren't true, namely: they're mostly associated with the Patriots, or that the flag originated with the team. Neither is the case, just as 1776 is not most commonly associated with 1WTC or the new Trade Centre complex, and didn't originate as a symbol on September 11th, 2001.

This is all on-topic, as the Nordstrom Tower is going to be high enough to flirt with these symbolic heights, and the decision on what height it will finally rise to has far-ranging implications for the future of skyscraper construction in NYC; eg, if Nordstrom feels it is obligated in some fashion to stop at 1775 feet, what does that say about the symbolism of the WTC as a limiting factor on the growth of the city. Simply put: has the notion of 'Never Forget' become twisted to mean 'Never Move On'.
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Old October 13th, 2014, 03:32 PM   #5162
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Ok.
They're not gonna increase the height of the spire.
They're clearly honoring Liebskind's - in my opinion totally unnecessary - symbolism for the WTC masterplan.
Who cares? It's gonna be effing tall. Does it really affect anyone in the world if the stick on top is a foot longer?
No
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Old October 13th, 2014, 08:32 PM   #5163
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I have no problem with them respecting the 1776 number of the Freedom tower.
I don't care much about spire heights anyway.
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Old October 13th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #5164
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Yeah, I'm a roofie too. From the GW Bridge or Brooklyn (or even Weehawken) you're not really going to see the spire that much anyway, but the roof will be clearly the highest in the city.
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Old October 13th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #5165
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OT -

Extell in Talks to Buy Midtown Church Property
Site Is Short Walk from Development Firm’s One57 Tower

http://online.wsj.com/articles/extel...rty-1413216005




Quote:
The developer of the One57 condominium project that soars 90 stories over Central Park is negotiating to purchase another development site just a couple of lots away, the current now site of the Calvary Baptist Church.

Extell Development Co., is in talks with the Calvary Baptist, which owns its church building at 123 W. 57th St., and the Salisbury Hotel on West 57th, according to documents posted on the church’s website and available in its lobby.

A report in September from the church’s board to its membership says the church has signed a letter of intent with Extell Development Corp. that allows the board to begin negotiations with Extell regarding potential redevelopment of the church’s property.
According to public records, the church and hotel occupy about 191,000 square feet.

The church’s documents also say that FXFOWLE Architects and Extell’s architectural team are working together to present a design concept.
Quote:
Extell also owns a 15-story apartment building directly backing onto the church and hotel site at 134 W. 58th St.
Quote:
While it is unclear what Mr. Barnett’s plans are, if he were to successfully purchase the church and hotel and move forward with a new development on the street, it could reignite controversy about development on the street, where community leaders are concerned that luxury towers are casting shadows on Central Park.
Possibly, a 5 Beekman St. or Hearst Tower treatment here??
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Old October 13th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #5166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
The relationship has been appropriated. 1WTC wouldn't rise to 1776ft if the number 1776 wasn't already important to America.

While it's not false to say that 1776 has a relationship to 1WTC, it is misleading to suggest the relationship is the most recognizable one.

Your original post:



Your wording implies a causal link; when in fact, the way it works is this: September 11th has symbolic links with American patriotism, and 1776 is a potent symbol of said patriotism.

I know it sounds like I'm being semantic, but I'm not. You're simply wrong.

It would be like saying the Stars and Stripes are a symbol of the New England Patriots. Again, you're not wrong, but saying so implies things that simply aren't true, namely: they're mostly associated with the Patriots, or that the flag originated with the team. Neither is the case, just as 1776 is not most commonly associated with 1WTC or the new Trade Centre complex, and didn't originate as a symbol on September 11th, 2001.

This is all on-topic, as the Nordstrom Tower is going to be high enough to flirt with these symbolic heights, and the decision on what height it will finally rise to has far-ranging implications for the future of skyscraper construction in NYC; eg, if Nordstrom feels it is obligated in some fashion to stop at 1775 feet, what does that say about the symbolism of the WTC as a limiting factor on the growth of the city. Simply put: has the notion of 'Never Forget' become twisted to mean 'Never Move On'.
Precisely that. 1776 is year when Thomas Jefferson wrote Declaration of independence, and has nothing to do with terrorist attack from 9/11/2001. However year of 1776 has great patriotic symbolism,which is related with 9/11.
It was nice idea to put this symbolic number in wtc1 spire hight out of respect. But as you mentioned if Extel decides to limit hight of Nordstrom tower in relation to wtc1, now that would be political meddling into architecture and city development, kind in communist manner....
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Old October 14th, 2014, 04:16 AM   #5167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Immigrant View Post
Precisely that. 1776 is year when Thomas Jefferson wrote Declaration of independence, and has nothing to do with terrorist attack from 9/11/2001. However year of 1776 has great patriotic symbolism,which is related with 9/11.
It was nice idea to put this symbolic number in wtc1 spire hight out of respect. But as you mentioned if Extel decides to limit hight of Nordstrom tower in relation to wtc1, now that would be political meddling into architecture and city development, kind in communist manner....
You had me right up until the word "communist."

Communism refers to an economic structure based on common ownership and a social structure based on lack of social classes... hardly the case regarding a needle on top of a privately owned building designed to house billionaires.

But as I said, I agree with everything else.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 08:23 AM   #5168
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They added a second wall around the first one, making it nearly impossible to view the site. An excavator perched at street level is removing the dirt ramp to allow any further piling and then floor pouring to occur.


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Old October 14th, 2014, 04:45 PM   #5169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by towerpower123 View Post
They added a second wall around the first one, making it nearly impossible to view the site.
Try going to the top floor of Lee's Art Shop across the street and look out the window. It's a great old building to explore anyway.

220 W 57th St, New York, NY 10019
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lee%2...m&z=15&iwloc=A
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Old October 15th, 2014, 03:38 AM   #5170
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I think this is the site for this tower...

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Old October 16th, 2014, 04:59 AM   #5171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMCYB View Post
You had me right up until the word "communist."

Communism refers to an economic structure based on common ownership and a social structure based on lack of social classes... hardly the case regarding a needle on top of a privately owned building designed to house billionaires.

But as I said, I agree with everything else.
I suspect he refers to the actual, rather than paper, version.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 06:31 PM   #5172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Noir View Post
I suspect he refers to the actual, rather than paper, version.
You mean a totalitarian dictatorship?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 07:50 PM   #5173
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One day the human race will solve ideological quandaries like communism and totalitarianism. But it won't be on the Skyscrapercity forum.

You're launching into a discussion that will not, and cannot, end. And for what?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 08:49 PM   #5174
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You're right. I was (in the beginning, anyway) simply letting someone know I agreed with him on every point except for the one that had nothing to do with architecture in a feeble attempt to keep the discussion on track. Then I became guilty of what you just pointed out, so for that I am sorry.

Anyway, back to the needle on top: I doubt that it will go above 1775 feet for the symbolic gesture of not being officially taller than 1WTC in the eyes of CTBUH, even if the roof/parapet is at 1550. I wouldn't care one way or the other if I were proven wrong. It's still going to be a friggin' tall building and a big addition to the skyline.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:09 PM   #5175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMCYB View Post
You're right. I was (in the beginning, anyway) simply letting someone know I agreed with him on every point except for the one that had nothing to do with architecture in a feeble attempt to keep the discussion on track. Then I became guilty of what you just pointed out, so for that I am sorry.

Anyway, back to the needle on top: I doubt that it will go above 1775 feet for the symbolic gesture of not being officially taller than 1WTC in the eyes of CTBUH, even if the roof/parapet is at 1550. I wouldn't care one way or the other if I were proven wrong. It's still going to be a friggin' tall building and a big addition to the skyline.
If I recall, this tower also sits on land 75 - 100ft higher than WTC. So even at 1,775ft, it will still appear taller.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 10:37 PM   #5176
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here is a view of it on the skyline[IMG][/IMG]
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Old October 17th, 2014, 01:10 PM   #5177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMCYB View Post
You had me right up until the word "communist."

Communism refers to an economic structure based on common ownership and a social structure based on lack of social classes... hardly the case regarding a needle on top of a privately owned building designed to house billionaires.

But as I said, I agree with everything else.
I was refering to decision making. In communism, all decisions including city developing and architecture were made by rulling party, and were made by people who were no experts. This decisions were primarily made upon political views, regularily including political symbolism, not reality and real needs. This 1776 feet limitation, remimded me on that. However, it was only a side note, and it was not intended to start debate. As SomeKindOfBug said, it's not so important....
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Old October 17th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #5178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan the Immigrant View Post
I was refering to decision making. In communism, all decisions including city developing and architecture were made by rulling party, and were made by people who were no experts. This decisions were primarily made upon political views, regularily including political symbolism, not reality and real needs. This 1776 feet limitation, remimded me on that. However, it was only a side note, and it was not intended to start debate. As SomeKindOfBug said, it's not so important....
Can you guys take this conversation somewhere else? Thanks
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Old October 17th, 2014, 07:04 PM   #5179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalscarr View Post
Can you guys take this conversation somewhere else? Thanks
I did... five posts ago (with an apology even). So let's ALL drop it please, starting... now!
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Old October 18th, 2014, 07:52 PM   #5180
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speaking of concrete, looks like they've been pouring more. I wonder if there's much digging left to do?

photos by NYguy on SSP





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217 west 57th street, 225 west 57th street, central park south, cps, extell, new york, nordstrom tower, nyc, supertall

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