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Old December 11th, 2008, 07:10 AM   #201
kegan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Here is a TGV that ran into a truck



<snip>

Euro trains seem like they are built from tinfoil, they're like buses on rails.
Talking of "tinfoil trains", an example from the US: Result of a commuter train hitting a SUV on a level crossing and derailing (pic from Wiki - Glendale train crash, LA).

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Old December 12th, 2008, 06:49 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Just because something looks more damaged doesn't mean that it's less safe.

Modern cars are much safer than cars of old that were built like tanks because they crumple.

I'm not saying trains work under the same principles, I'm merely saying you can't judge a train's safety on pictures.

You also can't measure a train system's safety by just the properties of the train. You also have to take into account the system it resides on.

A formula one car is extremely unsafe on public roads at any speed, but on the track, it's the opposite.

American trains aren't designed to travel on HSR rails, so you can't just compare the two.

True, unless they crumple to the point were they crush the passengers inside.


Which of these train would you rather be driving? I don't know about you but I'll take the right one thanks.

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Old December 12th, 2008, 07:23 AM   #203
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That only looks not too good for the train driver of the DMU, it's juts the front end that took the impact. The passenger compartment looks completely undamaged and I hope the train driver saw it coming and could escape through the backdoor. They were actually designed this way and with a bit of luck they could just put a new front end on the train.

But due to EU regulation all new trains in a few years (in some countries already) must have an active crash zone that also protects the train driver.

The DMU in the picture above doesn't have a crash zone.

[IMG]http://i34.************/wb4das.jpg[/IMG]

Same type op DMU with a crash zone

[IMG]http://i38.************/2z4mik0.jpg[/IMG]

btw, the same type of train just with a different front end is also running in the US for the New Jersey Transit.

[IMG]http://i35.************/25rm9nn.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:17 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
True, unless they crumple to the point were they crush the passengers inside.


Which of these train would you rather be driving? I don't know about you but I'll take the right one thanks.

Well if the train operators equips all their trains with Automatic Train Control then that kind of accident would never have happened in the first place.

Says in the link;
Quote:
While speed control is currently used on many passenger lines in the United States, in most cases it has been adopted voluntarily by the train operating company.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 11:55 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
There are just too many wild animals in America for high speed rail. Just think about all the bears and bison .
I wonder how many animals were killed on interstates then...

Anyway: it's pretty easy to solve the problem of the animals crossing rails, in America and Europe; just fence with grids or something else
I'm pretty sure that in Italy all HS tracks are fenced (and many ordinary railways ones as well)
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Old December 12th, 2008, 12:04 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kegan View Post
Talking of "tinfoil trains", an example from the US: Result of a commuter train hitting a SUV on a level crossing and derailing (pic from Wiki - Glendale train crash, LA).

One of the good thing with TGV it's that their structure prevent that kind of accidents. They are quite safe. Usually juist a few people are injured during an accident and it allmost never happen during High-Speed operation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_accidents

@jay : As others says before it's not because the train look totaled that it's more dangerous. If we follow your idea then modern car will be far more dangerous than older ones since they are design to absorb dammages. But the fact is they are safer than older cars because they are design to absorb dammages. It's the same with trains. It's better for

So the look of the thing after crash doesn't really mean anything nowadays.
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Old December 18th, 2008, 10:11 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
That only looks not too good for the train driver of the DMU, it's juts the front end that took the impact. The passenger compartment looks completely undamaged and I hope the train driver saw it coming and could escape through the backdoor. They were actually designed this way and with a bit of luck they could just put a new front end on the train.

But due to EU regulation all new trains in a few years (in some countries already) must have an active crash zone that also protects the train driver.

The DMU in the picture above doesn't have a crash zone.
That's all fine and good but trains, passenger cars especially should not just crumple like soda cans, it is far worse for the people inside, it is better to put crash zones at either end...

This is an example of a terribly engineered train.




This is much better, why we can't all build them like this I'll never know.

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Old December 19th, 2008, 02:53 AM   #208
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Yet that last example is a "European tin can" train. The UK doesn't construct its trains like the US.
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Old December 19th, 2008, 02:59 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
This is an example of a terribly engineered train.

Yeah by the look of the passenger cars it's more an old design rather than a "terribly engineered train".

You are comparing things that can not be compared together. Modern trains, and even more HS trains, are nothing compared to an ageing egyptian train.

And your second photo doesn't really make it better, a derailment can be very dangerous even if the train and the cars doesn't crumple. Depending of the speed of the accident people cans till die in that kind of accident. Don't forget, nobody wear seatbelts in a train.
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Old December 19th, 2008, 07:47 AM   #210
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Old December 19th, 2008, 08:05 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbman View Post
<snip>
And your second photo doesn't really make it better, a derailment can be very dangerous even if the train and the cars doesn't crumple. Depending of the speed of the accident people cans till die in that kind of accident. Don't forget, nobody wear seatbelts in a train.
Spot on - that photo is of the Grayrigg derailment (in the UK) which resulted in the death of one passenger.
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Old December 19th, 2008, 09:43 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Some time ago a portuguese Alfa Pendular (fiat tilting train) hit a lorry/truck and this was the result:







Derailments are caused by "something small" getting in front of the 1st wheels or "something big" lifting the nose or the 1st bogie of the leading car/coach/locomotive

In the 1st case even a 150 ton american locomotive gets defeated by newtons laws ... in the second case you "might" get lucky and have enought momentum to get rid of the nuinsance ... even a dozen cows (6/7 tons of pre-sliced-beef ???) can put a lot of stress on the leading bogie of a AC4000 (?) leading to its derailment ... you just need a little upwards movement to get the job done.

Those 75 (and counting?) sheep's legs on top of the rails certainly made a lot of potential candidates to explain "how" they managed to derail that ICE train.

EDIT: notice that the AP didn't even derail ... but the "destruction" is more looks than actualy something whrong ... its just glass fiber on those shiny bullet train noses actualy ... its there just to get smassed on a frontal colision ... less impact-damage on other vehicles/people it hits and always there's a better protection behind it (usualy some hidden dampers and high tech shock absorvers without the need to be streamlined)

It's made of fiberglass to do less damage to the vehicles it hits? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, the train is never at fault in any collision, They should be built TO damage the vehicles they hit to protect the train, It's kind of pathetic that 500 ton vehicles are made out of fiberglass. What was the truck carrying? The one that the Pendular hit? Or the TGV?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 08:34 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kegan View Post
Spot on - that photo is of the Grayrigg derailment (in the UK) which resulted in the death of one passenger.
But still, (Use the kerang crash for example) if there were something as simple as steel girders separating these windows it could have saved people's lives in this crash.

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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:30 AM   #214
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I don't know about others but I believe the most important for HSR is prevention of accidents not protection from accidents.
Things like dedicted line, fencing the entire route, complete grade seperation, ATCs, periodic rail examination are all to PREVENT accidents.
Anything added as protection also adds extra weight making it slower in acceleration and deceleration resulting to more time and spending more energy.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 04:31 PM   #215
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I can rely to that, in any case the worst HST accidents didn't happened on HSL, but mostly at crossroads.
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Old December 29th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
If it were that obvious a solution all of the very many highly skilled and highly paid railway engineers from all over the world would have thought of it. The ICE is built by probably the most highly skilled train designers on the planet, with equals only in France and Japan.
It is an obvious solution, for example whoever engineered this train was a dumbass because there is nothing protecting the front bogie, it crashed into a car at 100 mph and derailed killing 2 people on the train. Stick a small slab of metal on the front and it never would have happened.

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Old December 29th, 2008, 12:27 PM   #217
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Don't you get tired of trying to prove American train/engineering superiority? The Intercity 125's are very well engineered trains and have been in service for an awful long time now.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 10:27 AM   #218
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it's stupid that people have to lose their lives just because of cheaply engineered trains. Look at what happened to this maglev after hitting a service vehicle, it's split in half. If fact it's structure is so weak the train crumpled killing everyone inside and the vehicle's drivers survived.


http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...r/magwreck.jpg
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Old December 30th, 2008, 11:56 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
it's stupid that people have to lose their lives just because of cheaply engineered trains.

Exactly.

'Total destruction': At least 17 die in head-on Metrolink crash



There is nothing so cheap as throwing more metal at the problem. What is so clever about over-heavy trains travelling around at no more than 80mph, wasting energy all over the place?

The reason the Maglev is so light is that it has to travel at over 300mph. If the US ever gets around to building their own, I guarantee that they will be constructed using the same techniques.

If you add up all the deaths from high speed operation in Europe and Asia, it is still lower than those from crashes of American trains which have fallen off the rails while dawdling around the place.
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Old December 30th, 2008, 12:07 PM   #220
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Sheeps... LOL.
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