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Old January 7th, 2009, 07:52 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by MikaGe View Post
They prefer flying instead. I don't think there will as much demand as in Europe/Japan even if they built it.
Yes, HST system would be good for Amrerican agglomerations. For the rest, the country is simply too huge!
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Old January 7th, 2009, 08:44 PM   #242
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The easy answer to the fancy fence question: Fences hinder animals from moving freely in the nature, especially the deers from crossing! This is sadly a risk you have to accept if you do not want to fence your intire landscape!
I guess I'll just have to disagree 100% with you, Skyline: I think that animals (deers, sheep, stray dogs...) on railway tracks is infamous, and a thing to be avoided at all costs and at all times. I've been telling myself that we don't need to fence in HSLs in the middle of farming country because there are no animals running around (at least if the farmers deal responsibly with their livestock), but if I thought there were the slightest risk of deers and stags crossing the lines then the lines should IMHO be fenced. Otherwise, how about for example the German Autobahns where the pass close by the Schwarzwald in Baden-Wuertemberg? Should they also be wide open to the forrest because "it is so environmentally correct & so ennobling so see a roe jump onto the windscreen of a passing car every now and again"? I think not. And, like the Autobahns, the railways tracks need to be separated from the wildlife.
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Old January 7th, 2009, 09:29 PM   #243
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Do you want to compare Autobahn traffic to railways in rural areas? And deers do not tend ot stay on tracks, they jump over them and that's all. But why should all people pay for a sheperd to fence his animals. And as said before: THEY WERE fenced, but someone opened the fence. Such things can happen. We could also fence all the sidewalks to leave only the crossings free to pass the street in order to avois children running onto the street - a kind of accident that happens thousands of times every day!
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Old January 7th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #244
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Do you want to compare Autobahn traffic to railways in rural areas?
Certainly not! I consider it much more important to make sure that no person and no animal can accede to a hi-speed track than is the case with a road. After all, the newer railways in rural areas operate at 300-350 km/h - more than twice that of cars on the Autobahn. You may have noticed that the entity of the LGV Est between Paris and Baudrecourt is totally fenced off from the neighbouring fields and villages? Auch recht so!

You seem to be stuck in the German railway philosophies of the 1990s? New ICE lines "are all good and well, but they should be seen as improvements on an existing railway architecture connecting neighbouring towns - thank you very much". Well, I beg to differ. To me TGVs are a close substitute to jet planes and it is at least as important to keep animals off the tracks as it is to keep them off the runways of the Rhein-Main Airport.
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Old January 7th, 2009, 10:59 PM   #245
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Yet you still don't address any points that myself or Momo made. You simply try to equate a stronger train with less casualties. Not necessarily the case.

No, I get your point, the easier they crush the less impact their is, but that's only to a certain point, my point is if they crush too much people inside die, and I did give examples with the Israeli train crash and the heavy diesel engine hitting a similar sized truck. Emu's and railroad cars do not have to be built like locomotives, they should just be built tougher than they are, no vehicle should simply fly to pieces upon hitting a vehicle smaller than itself, that is poor engineering and nothing else. it is dangerous to travelers for passenger cars to be that weak, they should be able to withstand their own weight in a collision and not crush like a tin can.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #246
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Certainly not! I consider it much more important to make sure that no person and no animal can accede to a hi-speed track than is the case with a road. After all, the newer railways in rural areas operate at 300-350 km/h - more than twice that of cars on the Autobahn. You may have noticed that the entity of the LGV Est between Paris and Baudrecourt is totally fenced off from the neighbouring fields and villages? Auch recht so!

You seem to be stuck in the German railway philosophies of the 1990s? New ICE lines "are all good and well, but they should be seen as improvements on an existing railway architecture connecting neighbouring towns - thank you very much". Well, I beg to differ. To me TGVs are a close substitute to jet planes and it is at least as important to keep animals off the tracks as it is to keep them off the runways of the Rhein-Main Airport.
I ask myself how animals get on tracks anyway? Do sheperds not care for their sheep who are their income? Or do they hope to get good money on court from the Bahn? http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=42KJWp...ext=1&index=66
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:43 AM   #247
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TGV isn't all fenced either: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8skXT5...eature=related
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=8yszy1...eature=related
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:46 AM   #248
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Netherlands:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=2_v_ru...eature=related
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:48 AM   #249
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http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JRksiN...eature=related
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Old January 8th, 2009, 11:49 AM   #250
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TGV 500 km/h without fences: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ih3-2v...eature=related
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Old January 8th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #251
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Auuugh, that meshuggener Frankfurter just won't let up!

Let me make two things clear: (1) I was speaking of fences to keep errant sheep and dogs away, not pallisades. They follow the landscape and are often found 20-40 meters from the actual tracks; and (2) fences of the said kind one cannot see on a video clip when the picture moves at 500 km/h. (The fact that there are no railings around the level crossings of a Dutch provincial railway line I take as a given fact - even if an ICE happens to travel on the tracks.)

Take a look at this still photo, please: http://en.structurae.de/photos/index.cfm?JP=9476. If you look carefully you'll see the fences I'm talking about to the back of the photo on the high ground. I assure you, Skyline, that they are there all the way from Baudrecourt to the suburbs of Paris. The reason I'm so sure is because I had pre-cise-ly the same discussion with a German railway fan on the train between FFM and Paris. Together we monitored the sides of track for a long time and in the end he had to agree.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 02:20 PM   #252
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I am so meshugge, that I even agree with you! Can one be meshuggener than that? But it is a typical Deutscha Bahn problem, not to invest in basic needs and burn a lot of money for ugly train stations like Lehrter Bahnhof. I am not even a DB fan. Actually I HATE DB. It is even considered one of the company's German customers voted as most unfriendly and incompetent! I still think there should at least be made passages for animals to be able to live as normal as possible to not being 100% fenced!
I have't made the whole TGV tracks yet, so I cannot tell you whether 100% of France is fenced or not.
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Old January 8th, 2009, 02:52 PM   #253
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AGREE with me?? Oh, Sancta Simplicitas...

On the issue of the railway lines not becoming a barrier, well, they have built a number of under-passages for the wildlife in the forrested areas that are crossed by the line. The latter includes an area in Lorraine which was previously under national protection ("Naturschutzgebiet"), the protection of which was removed by the snap of the fingers as part of the planning procedures. That would NOT have been possible in my native Denmark, nor, I take it, in Germany?

As for the rest of the LGVs I don't think they are all fenced off. - At least that was not the case five years ago when I spent 30 uneventful minutes in an immobile TGV just outside Marseille while the police lassoed a group of errant cows. I think the fact that LGV Est was traced consistently for 350 km/h made the planners decide to go for a more through-composed HS concept than previously. (The reason the line is not yet APPROVED for 350 km/h has nothing to do with technology and everything with the fact that France does not yet possess such trains whereas Germany does. )

Personally I think you're being too negative toward DB: IMO they're doing a much better job with the resources they have than does SNCF. ICE3 is a better train than TGV; they have a better timeliness in their "Stundenverkehr"; and the efficiency in their railway operations is much, much better. (On the latter point, in Gare du Nord you see trains occupy platforms for up to HOURS while being cleaned and checked. But... the new Airport Express cannot leave from GdN because it is "saturated"... ) It's not DB's fault that the German public has less taste for "Grands Projets" than the French. Nor is it DB's fault that they have to operate in a federalist country where every cake has to be split dozens of ways to please "Städtekönige" and "Provinzfürsten".
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Old January 8th, 2009, 04:20 PM   #254
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Well, I do think that DB is decaying, not investing and our govenrment will try to get rid of one of Germany's companies! Okay, that Transrapid went down the drain is all politicians' fault. And I hope that it will be baught by the Japanese to get their superior technolgy and planning here. DB sucks!
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Old January 15th, 2009, 05:02 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
* http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/20...b__430x268.jpg
Crevalcore, Italy -> deaths: 13

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/630000...fpcrash300.jpg
Bruhl, Germany 2000 -> deaths: 9

* http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010623/wld4.gif
Levelcrossing collision in Vilseck, Germany 2001 -> deaths: 3 (including the driver of the truck)

better pic
http://www.feuerwehr-vilseck.de/eins...g_brennt_1.jpg

it hit this type of American army truck:

[IMG]http://i41.************/sbhgeo.jpg[/IMG]

* http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/C...6a.hmedium.jpg
2008 Studénka train disaster, Czech Republic -> deaths: 7

And America

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/193500...iages300ap.jpg
2002 Crescent City derailment -> deaths: 4, injured

It didn't even hit something.

* 1993 Big Bayou Canot train wreck -> deaths: 47

* 1999 Bourbonnais, Illinois train accident -> deaths: 11

* 2005 Glendale train crash -> deaths: 11

* 2008 Chatsworth train collision -> deaths: 25

All in all, there's isn't really difference in the deathtoll between the two continents, of course there's also the Eschede ICE disaster with 101 deaths, but that train was traveling 200 km/h (124 mph) when it crashed. There might also be more passenger train disasters in Europe then in the US, but that's because there are simply more trains running on this side of the ocean.

The whole point is that in Europe the focus is more on preventing the trains from crashing in the first place.

You mentioned the two ONLY times where anyone aboard an American train was killed because it hit a vehicle. It happens countless times in Europe and elsewhere, our trains are safer because they do NOT crush crumple and break apart upon impact with a truck, they rarely derail too.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 09:33 AM   #256
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You mentioned the two ONLY times where anyone aboard an American train was killed because it hit a vehicle. It happens countless times in Europe and elsewhere, our trains are safer because they do NOT crush crumple and break apart upon impact with a truck, they rarely derail too.
No, the reason is that Americans do not even have an efficient railway system! So look how many of the slow trains here in Europe crash. The only main crashes that occur are with high speed trains. And the train system in Europe is superdense and crosses all the major agglomerations also at high speed! You simply cannot compare the simple American system to hightech systems elsewhere!
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Old January 15th, 2009, 09:55 AM   #257
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That's true

Of course you're safer in those big American trains when there's an accident, but has it ever crossed your mind why American passenger rail travel is almost non existent. If all European trains would be as heavy as the American ones, it will be just to expensive to operate all those trains even to smaller towns all over the continent.

And if you look at the hard numbers, rail travel is still very safe in Europe. The number of casualties per train kilometer might even be much lower then in the US, so there's no actual need for heavier trains. But that doesn't mean it's not issue, we just go smart solutions like better train protection systems and active crash zones to make trains safer.

In the end of the day, how important is safety for the average traveler. I mean, trains are much safer then cars for example....
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Old January 15th, 2009, 06:49 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
That's true

Of course you're safer in those big American trains when there's an accident, but has it ever crossed your mind why American passenger rail travel is almost non existent. If all European trains would be as heavy as the American ones, it will be just to expensive to operate all those trains even to smaller towns all over the continent.

And if you look at the hard numbers, rail travel is still very safe in Europe. The number of casualties per train kilometer might even be much lower then in the US, so there's no actual need for heavier trains. But that doesn't mean it's not issue, we just go smart solutions like better train protection systems and active crash zones to make trains safer.

In the end of the day, how important is safety for the average traveler. I mean, trains are much safer then cars for example....

I don't actually think there's really any significant size difference between American and European trains, I don't know about the weight though, how much does an average 26 meter long rail car weigh there? Anyways that's not a very good excuse I don't think. Just because there's a lot of them does not mean you can't build them strong and safe, It would not take a lot of extra weight or money, just some engineering smarts.
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Old January 15th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #259
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From the European Rail Agency 2008 Biennial Report on Safety Performance:

Safety comparisons globally

The Agency has tried to compare EU safety performance of
the railways with that of other developed countries outside
of Europe. Such comparisons are not easy to carry out, mainly
due to the lack of published data and comparable indicators
and definitions. However, a small study executed by the Agency
has allowed us to compare safety performance in the EU with
that of the USA (national rail by AMTRAK and commuter rail,
published by the Federal Railroad Administration).

The comparison provides evidence that safety on Europe’s railways is at least as good as that on the US railroads. In the period 2004 to 2007 an average of 0,24 passengers fatalities were recorded per billion passenger kilometre in the US. The EU average during the period from 2004 to 2006 was 0,18 fatalities per billion passenger kilometres. The same type of indicators are used both in the US and in Europe.


Source: http://www.era.europa.eu/core/Safety...stigation.aspx
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Old January 15th, 2009, 08:31 PM   #260
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Very good find! And not to forget: It is not Amtrak technology that is sold around the world!
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