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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #281
disturbman
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Sorry but all you guys can say is that you're railroad is safer, where is the real proof for that? It seems hard to believe after every photo of most euro train accidents end in piles of twisted metal while north american trains and other countries who use north american train technology have trains that are better engineered.
It maybe hard to believe but it's none the less true. You cannot discard facts, infos and datas like that just because you find them unpleasent, not at your taste.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 02:55 AM   #282
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Those photos are from locomotive crashes. As far as DMU's go it's abvious that they all lack structural frames, how ******* stupid can you be? All other vehicles have steel frames than can adequitly support their own weight in a collision.

This hit a truck
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Old January 28th, 2009, 04:10 AM   #283
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Yep sure do engineer those trains well

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Old January 28th, 2009, 05:11 AM   #284
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Just like those heavy weight, loco hauled Superliner carriages. All that weight and still ripped open like a tin can!

Agree with earlier posts that this thread should be renamed. How about "US passenger trains are the best, Euro ones are rubbish"?
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Old January 28th, 2009, 05:23 AM   #285
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DMU's and EMU's everywhere are rubbish, the newest British DMU's are probably the best engineered anywhere, along with some North american ones. others are extremely dangerous when it comes to level grade crossings as shown above. It would not be hard or costly to construct the front with stronger metal to prevent tragedies.

All you need is a frame of steel beams and you got yourself a less destructable vehicle, without much added weight or cost.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 09:19 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I don't actually think there's really any significant size difference between American and European trains, I don't know about the weight though, how much does an average 26 meter long rail car weigh there? Anyways that's not a very good excuse I don't think. Just because there's a lot of them does not mean you can't build them strong and safe, It would not take a lot of extra weight or money, just some engineering smarts.


American trains weight as much as 20t more than their european counterparts ... just look at ACELA vs TGV

Or even 50% more if we talk about locomotives.

American Intercity


European Intercity 1


European Intercity 2




American comuter 1


American comuter 2


european Comuter 1


european comuter 2


european comuter 3



And the difference is ...



MAMUT A

American freight locomotive (3000/4000hp each pached into a 80 tonner)


European freight locomotive (8100hp in a single 84ton. loco)



MAMUT B

American truck



European truck



It's easy to see why european train accidents have much LESS probabilities to be catastrophic ...
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 28th, 2009, 09:33 AM   #287
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The easy answer to the fancy fence question: Fences hinder animals from moving freely in the nature, especially the deers from crossing! This is sadly a risk you have to accept if you do not want to fence your intire landscape! But I agree that in areas like tunnels it would be a good thing to think about, because until the animals can be seen by the conducter it is too late. On a plain landscape however I see no need for fencing!

What the ...



Over here we try to fense every major road and railway ... both as protective to the users of that same railway/road as to the ocasional trespasser (might it b human or animal).


renewed railways usually have crossings at every 500m or so ... that being "underpass" or "overpass" ...


I simply fail to understand why german insist on NOT fencing anything.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 28th, 2009, 09:38 AM   #288
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You mentioned the two ONLY times where anyone aboard an American train was killed because it hit a vehicle. It happens countless times in Europe and elsewhere, our trains are safer because they do NOT crush crumple and break apart upon impact with a truck, they rarely derail too.

No ... they DONT CRUSH nor BRAKE because they were mostly broken to pieces and crushed in a local junkyard some decades ago.


Given the total absense of regional and intercity in 99% of american rails ... it's a blessfull thing ...


There ir probably more passenger/traffic in the Paris-Lyon HSL in an HOUR than in the entire Amtrak services outside the NEC in a month ... want to check on colision numbers ???
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old January 28th, 2009, 03:40 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
DMU's and EMU's everywhere are rubbish, the newest British DMU's are probably the best engineered anywhere, along with some North american ones. others are extremely dangerous when it comes to level grade crossings as shown above. It would not be hard or costly to construct the front with stronger metal to prevent tragedies.

All you need is a frame of steel beams and you got yourself a less destructable vehicle, without much added weight or cost.
Where on earth is your evidence for this? You ignore statistics when considering rail safety (yet Europe has approximately half the death rate of the USA), you make these sweeping generalisations about train design yet have no evidence beyond subjective pictures to back up your statements. You refuse to take into account those mitigating circumstances that I talked about ages ago too.

YAWWWWWNNNNNN. I don't know how many people it takes to tell you that you're wrong before you start to listen.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 04:38 PM   #290
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realistically, high speed trains should be lightweight, and if that means mostly seperating them from other forms of rail traffic to make the possibility of a collision zero, then so be it.

Look at the TGV, it's never had a fatal wreck...on a high speed line. Trains have derailed at speed and passengers have walked away. But there have been accidents where the TGV is on regular tracks leading into towns and hit big trucks or other trains at crossings that have killed people.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 02:13 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Where on earth is your evidence for this? You ignore statistics when considering rail safety (yet Europe has approximately half the death rate of the USA), you make these sweeping generalisations about train design yet have no evidence beyond subjective pictures to back up your statements. You refuse to take into account those mitigating circumstances that I talked about ages ago too.

YAWWWWWNNNNNN. I don't know how many people it takes to tell you that you're wrong before you start to listen.
Yes, I know i probably should not have compared Euro technology to American, however my point still stands, in fact there are American EMU's that are dangerously constructed, I'm not saying that every single american train is better than every single european one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZWpeU55J3E In this video here you see the car break to pieces on impact with a locomotive. I don't care about "save money this" or the railway is basically safe that, yes you're right, trains are safe ways of traveling however, as a student of engineering myself, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT how a train should be constructed (In the pictures where it is smashed because it hit a truck) no I would not feel safe traveling in that railcar, especially up front knowing that some careless truckdriver could kill us all. there are well built european trains and poorly built american ones, but no one under any circumstance should EVER die because a train hit a truck, not even the engineer. The weight difference between a small train and a large truck is still the weight difference between a small truck and say, a golf cart. You don't run into a golf cart in a truck and die.


Basically my argument

Take the EMU's in whatever country that are unsafe off the rails. You don't need to make trains superheavy, Most euro trains are about the same weight as American ones. One of those double decker superliners weighs about 60 tonnes. A RENFE double decker motorized cab car weighs 70 tonnes with the non motorized ones weighing about 55 or so. I just don't understand how trains without adequite steel frames could even be allowed to run on the rails, drivers of heavy vehicles will be dumb and drive in front of them, it's inevitable. It's common sense and can save lives.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 06:34 AM   #292
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By this logic though you would have everyone driving tank-like cars with armour-plating simply to mitigate for stupidity on the road.

One has to accept that there is an "acceptable level" whereby the number of casualties are traded against practicality, energy efficiency, acceleration/deceleration etc. Instead of constructing more and more tank-like trains one should consider doing things like full grade separation and the removal of level crossings. If this is impossible, barriers at all level crossings should be the "silver standard" for operation.

There are always going to be unsafe things in the world and it is almost impossible to engineer every bit of risk out of life. Statistically speaking you're more likely to die crossing the road than you are taking a train yet people don't insist on bubble-wrapping people, constructing bridges every 10m over every road so pedestrians can cross safely.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 07:58 AM   #293
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Cars are tougher for their size than some trains, A car will not be seriously damaged hitting a much, much smaller vehicle, some trains will be.

I agree with you in that nothing should be unnessecary but it's such a simple solution, it doesn't take alot of money or extra weight. Most trains are extremely heavy vehicles, they dwarf the weight of a tank, yet the way some are constructed they will be dangerously damaged on impact with something like a truck, there are easy ways to prevent that, that's all I'm saying.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #294
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Cars are tougher for their size than some trains, A car will not be seriously damaged hitting a much, much smaller vehicle, some trains will be.



Yes but a train either will not be seriously damaged hitting a much, much smaller vehicle. If a car hit a truck it will be seriously damaged too. You are comparing things that you shouldn't. A truck in any case is not a small pea compared to a train. A truck is just a truck, it's huge, heavy and enormous. Make crash between that and something else you will still have a horrid result. The size is not the more relevant factor, the weight is. It influences the forces applied during a collision.

If two very heavy things are going to collide, a big wreck is most likely to happen.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:07 AM   #295
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Yes but a train either will not be seriously damaged hitting a much, much smaller vehicle. If a car hit a truck it will be seriously damaged too. You are comparing things that you shouldn't. A truck in any case is not a small pea compared to a train. A truck is just a truck, it's huge, heavy and enormous. Make crash between that and something else you will still have a horrid result. The size is not the more relevant factor, the weight is. It influences the forces applied during a collision.

If two very heavy things are going to collide, a big wreck is most likely to happen.

That is true, but even the heaviest european road trucks weigh a bit shy of 40 tonnes, when one of those electric locomotives is at least twice that much or even as much as 90 tonnes, and a 3 axle deisel more that 130 tonnes, and with a whole train behind that, it truly makes any truck a small pea compared to the train.

Last edited by Jay; January 30th, 2009 at 11:16 AM.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:50 PM   #296
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If you're going to put passengers right next to the front of the train like many modern E/DMU's and HST it is not acceptable for them to crunch easily. Eliminating level crossings is not going to happen anytime soon, so why not just throw a few extra bucks towards actually making trains safe? Doesn't make sense to me.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 02:59 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by disturbman View Post



Yes but a train either will not be seriously damaged hitting a much, much smaller vehicle. If a car hit a truck it will be seriously damaged too. You are comparing things that you shouldn't. A truck in any case is not a small pea compared to a train. A truck is just a truck, it's huge, heavy and enormous. Make crash between that and something else you will still have a horrid result. The size is not the more relevant factor, the weight is. It influences the forces applied during a collision.

If two very heavy things are going to collide, a big wreck is most likely to happen.

I'm not talking about a car hitting a truck. yes weight is an important thing in any collision... and what normal road truck weighs more than a train?
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Old February 4th, 2009, 11:41 PM   #298
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____

Last edited by Jay; February 5th, 2009 at 06:43 AM.
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Old February 5th, 2009, 05:42 AM   #299
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you do realise that the front of the TGV's are simply a cover over the coupler, which provides a crumple zone of sorts? this cover is replaced easily and quickly, with the only other damage to the train above being to the panel underneath, due to the car catching and dragging underneath.......

seriously, if you really are doing an engineering degree, i pity the quality of your education, if all you can say is "OLOLOL!!11! Look at the damage - this train must suck big time!!11!!!"
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Old February 6th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #300
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Resume answers from what I read on this thread.

How to brake faster, be lighter! More weight=more inertia. Strength of train is in the structure and its design (about this crash in Australia). I'd better see a train smashed with people safe inside than a train in perfect state with dead people inside because could not resist the hit (we speak here about fast or slow trains.) Would recommand new materials like aluminium (why are we still dealing with steel nowadays?) We need new approaches for the railway industry and crush old ideas drilled deep in minds that make no sense today

To keep sheep (cows or wildlife) out of the way, a simple (ok double) low voltage electric line could impeach animals to reach the tracks, not damaging the landscape (as old as I was born technique). And xtremely cheap.
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