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Old February 10th, 2009, 12:17 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micrav View Post
Resume answers from what I read on this thread.

Strength of train is in the structure and its design (about this crash in Australia). I'd better see a train smashed with people safe inside than a train in perfect state with dead people inside because could not resist the hit (we speak here about fast or slow trains.) :

Obviously most of these euro trains lack structural design then. You don't see many american trains smashed from a truck or even another train. Yes most American trains are locomotive hauled but if you are going to construct a locomotiveless train, at least make it crashworthy. The train getting smashed in Australia is why people died, why not just actually build a train that can take a side impact? And it didn't resist the hit, that's why people died.. again.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 12:25 AM   #302
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Ok, let's say your train was about to hit a heavy truck or hey, even a tank, what would you like to be riding in, the front of an european emu that would break open or a heavier, solidly constructed train that would smash said obstacle?

The answer is obvious, case closed.


The Acela weighs 566 tonnes (It's power cars weigh 93 tonnes and the coaches weight about 64 each) and is only 200m long and still manages quite fine to travel at 250 kph, If it were involved in a wreck people would be ok because it's built like a tank.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 04:49 AM   #303
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The Acela could travel as fast as 200 mph (~320 kph) but Federal Railroad Administration regulations forbid it.

The railroad regulations in the U.S. need to be changed if we it is ever going to get true HSR.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:40 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Ok, let's say your train was about to hit a heavy truck or hey, even a tank, what would you like to be riding in, the front of an european emu that would break open or a heavier, solidly constructed train that would smash said obstacle?

The answer is obvious, case closed.
That is such a stupid arguement, as HSR in Europe is completely grade-separate with not a single level crossing, meaning the chance of a truck (or tank) being on the tracks is closer to 0% than to 0.0001. Why not improve rail infrastructure in the US to AVOID accidents instead of preparing for when the accidents happen....
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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #305
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And still the numbers don't lie. Maybe the trains are a bit safer in the US, rail travel is still safer in Europe.
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Originally Posted by wonwiin View Post
From the European Rail Agency 2008 Biennial Report on Safety Performance:

Safety comparisons globally

The Agency has tried to compare EU safety performance of
the railways with that of other developed countries outside
of Europe. Such comparisons are not easy to carry out, mainly
due to the lack of published data and comparable indicators
and definitions. However, a small study executed by the Agency
has allowed us to compare safety performance in the EU with
that of the USA (national rail by AMTRAK and commuter rail,
published by the Federal Railroad Administration).

The comparison provides evidence that safety on Europe’s railways is at least as good as that on the US railroads. In the period 2004 to 2007 an average of 0,24 passengers fatalities were recorded per billion passenger kilometre in the US. The EU average during the period from 2004 to 2006 was 0,18 fatalities per billion passenger kilometres. The same type of indicators are used both in the US and in Europe.
Source: http://www.era.europa.eu/core/Safety...stigation.aspx
Apparently trains in the US need to be build much more like a tank because the chance of a deathly crash in America is much higher then in Europe (a higher death rate with a significantly smaller passenger kilometer number in the US). Lighter trains on American tracks would be something that's not recommendable.

And Europe still has a very dense rail network, with connections to some of the smallest towns. Were in the US there are state capitals completely without passenger trains. So if the price for our good widely spread railway system is that the trains are structurally a bit weaker then the US ones, then I'm willing to take that risk every time I board the train. Especially since it's also 400 times safer to travel by train in Europe then by car.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 04:22 PM   #306
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I dont know how its everywhere on the continent,but here,every line capable of 160 must be 100% grade separated...
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Old February 10th, 2009, 10:40 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam King View Post
That is such a stupid arguement, as HSR in Europe is completely grade-separate with not a single level crossing, meaning the chance of a truck (or tank) being on the tracks is closer to 0% than to 0.0001. Why not improve rail infrastructure in the US to AVOID accidents instead of preparing for when the accidents happen....


Grade Separated?? What? how many trucks has the TGV hit?


It's definitely more economically beneficial to build a train correctly than to take the effort to remove all grade crossings, that's not going to happen.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #308
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You are starting (euphemism) to be annoying Jay.

If you don't know that all HSR are grade separated then you should simply stop writting and stop reading a little bit about what you are arguing about. Or maybe comme here, to Euope, to see what's really going on.

I really think that this discussion have to stop now. It is quite obvious that the thread is not going anywhere since you started posted.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 11:58 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Grade Separated?? What? how many trucks has the TGV hit?
While running on high speed lines? None. High speed lines do not have any level crossings (in Europe, anyway).

All TGV crossing crashes have been on ordinary lines running at ordinary speeds. This is not HSR.

The only TGV crossing crash resulting in fatalities on the train involved a truck with an overweight load (weighing approx 80 tonnes total). I'd be curious to know how the Acela would stand up in such a collision - the carriages having separate bogies (rather than articulated like the TGV) mean that it is more prone to jack-knife if derailed.

Btw, why did you edit this post which formerly showed a car stuck under the front of a TGV. Was it because it turned out that it didn't support your position? (As pointed out by Bulbous.)
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Old June 24th, 2010, 04:25 AM   #310
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EUROPE | Rail Accidents

At least 10 people were killed when a high-speed passenger train slammed into a group of revelers crossing a railway track in northeastern Spain, regional authorities and Spanish media said.

Fifteen people were also injured in the accident at the Castelldefels Playa station south of Barcelona at around 11:30pm (2130 GMT), the interior ministry of the regional government of Catalonia said in a statement.

Spanish national radio put the death toll at 12 with four seriously injured.

Spanish media said the dead and injured were youths who were celebrating the Saint John's Day festival, which takes place annually on June 23 in the northeastern region of Catalonia and includes bonfires, fireworks, concerts and dances.

It said they had arrived at the station on another train and were crossing the tracks to go to the beach, although the station was equipped with a pedestrian underpass.

The interior ministry said the rail line was closed following the accident and dozens of teams of police, medics and firefighters and Red Cross workers were at the scene.

It said the passengers on the train, which was traveling between the eastern cities of Alicante and Barcelona, were unhurt.

===============

Is this a sad and appalling event that shows we need to better isolate train platforms from tracks, particularly those carrying passing traffic in train stations?

I think the European Union should mandate better physical isolation of rail tracks near stations, so passengers don't skip overpasses and tunnels to cross 'a track in 4 seconds'. Platform screen doors should be mandated for, say, any station where trains might pass with speeds above, say, 30km/h.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 05:40 AM   #311
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Hello, I´m from 80 km south of the station qhere it happened, and I am a regular user of this line (Barcelona-Tarragona).
It´s 12 killed, 3 critical, and about 20 injured to several degrees.

It HAD to happen.
And I do not think I am sad at all by it. Angry more than anything else.
Because we´ve seen it coming. Had to happen sooner or later.

People take trains for granted.

People are more and more careless of normal behaviour rules in the Mediterranean spanish coast, and very precisely on that line, and it is not just the Spaniards who do, many foreign tourists act foolishly too when crossing the rails (in Salou, for instance).

The station had an underpass (which was open just like every other day), an overpass (which was closed for works, Murphy´s law...), there was signs telling people not to cross, and every 2 minutes or so there are calls by megaphone telling people not to cross the rails. And that had just been reinforced, as the station had just undergone an upgrading.

But people still do. Still cross the rails.

People in this area even prefer to break the fence and cross the rails rather than take a "longer" walk -one? two more minutes?, through the under or overpass- even if it´s TWO BLEEDING METRES AWAY FROM WHERE THEY CROSS THE RAILS!!!!

A friend of mine died nearly ten years ago because of doing this things, and even though we kept telling and telling him not to do so, and to use the bloody underpass... he did. And he´s gone.

BTW: the way the journalists put it, it´s like if a TGV had hit these people at 300km/h. No. It was indeed an Alaris (a sort of HST), but in that line you cannot run that fast, top speed is 160, and I doubt in that particular sector you go that fast. It could have been another commuter train at the same speed.
Anyway thus, journalists only make it "bigger and worse". Lovely journalists.

Last edited by 437.001; June 24th, 2010 at 05:51 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 05:45 AM   #312
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Though tragic, I'm inclined to believe their deaths likely were the result of sheer idiocy.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is this a sad and appalling event that shows we need to better isolate train platforms from tracks, particularly those carrying passing traffic in train stations?

I think the European Union should mandate better physical isolation of rail tracks near stations, so passengers don't skip overpasses and tunnels to cross 'a track in 4 seconds'. Platform screen doors should be mandated for, say, any station where trains might pass with speeds above, say, 30km/h.
I think it´s better to let themselves get ripped open.
You can put as many fences as you want, they´ll break them, it is a normal thing to do here, I see it everyday.

AND NOT JUST THE SPANIARDS, BTW, watch the English or the Dutch behave (well, sort of "behave") in certain of these places, and let´s all hung our heads in shame... until the next time.

The one thing that changes everything, is that tonight´s been an all-together-now thing. But earlier this evening, two more had been killed too in the Barcelona suburbs in another line, one by walking on the tracks, the other at a rail crossing with the barriers lowered... must have been hurried...to die.

Last edited by 437.001; June 24th, 2010 at 06:07 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 05:59 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larmey View Post
Though tragic, I'm inclined to believe their deaths likely were the result of sheer idiocy.
INDEED THEY WERE, and also possibly half-induced by the use of substances and liquids.
There was an underpass, and they did cross the rails, despite the megaphone calls every 2 minutes, and the signs.

Last edited by 437.001; June 24th, 2010 at 06:10 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 06:13 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
At least 10 people were killed when a high-speed passenger train slammed into a group of revelers crossing a railway track in northeastern Spain, regional authorities and Spanish media said.

Fifteen people were also injured in the accident at the Castelldefels Playa station south of Barcelona at around 11:30pm (2130 GMT), the interior ministry of the regional government of Catalonia said in a statement.

Spanish national radio put the death toll at 12 with four seriously injured.

Spanish media said the dead and injured were youths who were celebrating the Saint John's Day festival, which takes place annually on June 23 in the northeastern region of Catalonia and includes bonfires, fireworks, concerts and dances.

It said they had arrived at the station on another train and were crossing the tracks to go to the beach, although the station was equipped with a pedestrian underpass.

The interior ministry said the rail line was closed following the accident and dozens of teams of police, medics and firefighters and Red Cross workers were at the scene.

It said the passengers on the train, which was traveling between the eastern cities of Alicante and Barcelona, were unhurt.

===============

Is this a sad and appalling event that shows we need to better isolate train platforms from tracks, particularly those carrying passing traffic in train stations?

I think the European Union should mandate better physical isolation of rail tracks near stations, so passengers don't skip overpasses and tunnels to cross 'a track in 4 seconds'. Platform screen doors should be mandated for, say, any station where trains might pass with speeds above, say, 30km/h.
Definitely NOT a HSR accident. Trains never run that fast in that station. Could have been a commuter and the results would have been the same..
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Old June 24th, 2010, 07:30 AM   #316
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Quote:
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Definitely NOT a HSR accident. Trains never run that fast in that station. Could have been a commuter and the results would have been the same..
Ok, got it. I was reading the news in my original language and it was translated (in English equivalent) like "bullet train running up to 280km/h split bodies in halves as passengers were forced to take a detour over the tracks", and then the journalist comments that Italy should enforce lower max speed for trains crossing stations without stopping at 80 or 60 km/h to avoid this kind of tragedy.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 08:58 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

I think the European Union should mandate better physical isolation of rail tracks near stations, so passengers don't skip overpasses and tunnels to cross 'a track in 4 seconds'. Platform screen doors should be mandated for, say, any station where trains might pass with speeds above, say, 30km/h.
That's not practical. It's not needed too. After all, accidents like this are not common enough to justify increasing the complexity of railway operations to this extent.

What could be done (in my opinion) is putting a fence between the two tracks in stations. That way you signal in a very clear way to passengers that crossing the tracks is not only dangerous, but also that it won't get you anywhere...
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Old June 24th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #318
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Quote:
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..., and then the journalist comments that Italy should enforce lower max speed for trains crossing stations without stopping at 80 or 60 km/h to avoid this kind of tragedy.
Which proves again that when it comes to trains the media are as ignorant in Italy as they are everywhere else.

Lowering the maximum speed won't do a thing. You're as dead when you get run over by a 60kph train as when you get run over by a 160kph train. You simply should not cross tracks. Period. If you do you're an idiot.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 09:07 AM   #319
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Looks like some people just won the Darwin award. Surprised this wasn't said already.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 10:00 AM   #320
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R.I.P. it's really sad, but as others I have problems having too much sympathy for the people provocating such accidents by baland stupidity. But my best wishes go out for their famelies and also for the engine driver
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