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Old June 25th, 2010, 04:56 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is this a sad and appalling event that shows we need to better isolate train platforms from tracks, particularly those carrying passing traffic in train stations?

I think the European Union should mandate better physical isolation of rail tracks near stations, so passengers don't skip overpasses and tunnels to cross 'a track in 4 seconds'. Platform screen doors should be mandated for, say, any station where trains might pass with speeds above, say, 30km/h.
I must disagree with the untold billions upon billions of euros it would take to retrofit thousands of train stations in Europe because of a few stupid people. There has to be a point where the cost is too much and this would be over the line. It is sad that these people were killed, but it is not the train's fault at all since the underpass was available and there are signs and announcements.

Are there stations where the train passes at less than 30 km/h? I can't imagine any (maybe there are a couple of them?) so you're talking about adding platform doors to every station throughout Europe is a monstrous cost even though every day millions of people do not illegally cross the tracks.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 05:31 AM   #342
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Any loss of life, and in these numbers, is tragic, but as others have mentioned, there was signage, an underpass, frequent announcements not to cross the tracks, etc. These people chose to ignore all that and gamble with their lives, and lost. They may have well as chosen to cross a busy expressway at rush hour.

As K mentioned, at least there should be a barrier between the double tracks to discourage casual crossing. Of course determined (or inebriated) trespassers will not be deterred, but at the least it may slow some down. Such fences are used on the Caltrain line in Northern California, where I come from:

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source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/natasha...ar/2344530572/
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Old June 25th, 2010, 06:47 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Any loss of life, and in these numbers, is tragic, but as others have mentioned, there was signage, an underpass, frequent announcements not to cross the tracks, etc. These people chose to ignore all that and gamble with their lives, and lost. They may have well as chosen to cross a busy expressway at rush hour.

As K mentioned, at least there should be a barrier between the double tracks to discourage casual crossing. Of course determined (or inebriated) trespassers will not be deterred, but at the least it may slow some down. Such fences are used on the Caltrain line in Northern California, where I come from:

image hosted on flickr

source: http://www.flickr.com/photos/natasha...ar/2344530572/
A few weeks ago, we talk about HST crossing in railway station on moroccan railway forum and I notice that the US system have barrier for passengers safety but there is very close the platform (this is not exactly an HST problem)


US with a safety message.


En Allemagne


With 2 central lines in the middle of station.

Allemagne


Japon
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #344
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Apparently:

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Montserrat Tura, justice minister for Spain's Catalonia region, said the death toll had risen from 12 to 13.

She said the dead were immigrants from Ecuador, Bolivia and Colombia, but she did not give a breakdown. Fourteen people were injured, and three of them were in serious condition.
Details here and here
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:23 AM   #345
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Apparently:



Details here and here
Aaah. Perhaps they simply didn't understand what could happen to them.
It's such a spectacularly idiotic thing to do, I wondered if these people had been drinking or something like that.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 03:00 PM   #346
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Old June 25th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #347
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The problem is not infrastructure but education.

People shouldn't trespass the rail, it's forbidden.

If we resign that people won't be able to learn norms, then we must construct barriers such as the american ones.

Don't lose the point f the tragedy.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 11:39 PM   #348
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[QUOTE=k.k.jetcar;59246111As K mentioned, at least there should be a barrier between the double tracks to discourage casual crossing. Of course determined (or inebriated) trespassers will not be deterred, but at the least it may slow some down. Such fences are used on the Caltrain line in Northern California, where I come from:
[/QUOTE]

In Belgium we have lots of stations where non-stop trains pass through at
120 km/h or more. No platform doors, and no fences between tracks. I'm
a train fan, so I frequently observe and take pictures in stations, and never
saw people crossing the tracks. I do not pretend it does not exist. But I don't
remember the last time when a death was announced in those circumstances.

Fitting platform doors would be next to impossible because of the variety of
rolling stock used, with different door widths, and different spacing between
successive doors. This is only practical on lines where only one kind of
stock is used, like Paris Metro line 14 or Lille. This is all driverless operations;
in fact, I do not know of any place where this is used whith manned trains.

Fitting fences between tracks is of course less expensive, but still requires
extra separation between tracks to make space for the fence. Easy enough
if the station is built with this idea in mind, much less if retrofitting a station
with not enough space between the tracks : even the platforms would have
to be re-aligned.

And I agree with many other forumers on this idea too : not too much public
money should be spent to protect people from their own idiocy.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 12:39 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post

Fitting fences between tracks is of course less expensive, but still requires
extra separation between tracks to make space for the fence. Easy enough
if the station is built with this idea in mind, much less if retrofitting a station
with not enough space between the tracks : even the platforms would have
to be re-aligned.

If there is enough space, maybe a cheap barbwire solution can be put in place to disrupt most crossings.

And I agree with many other forumers on this idea too : not too much public
money should be spent to protect people from their own idiocy.
If two tracks are close enough that a single-standing fence, width <10 cm, can't be implemented, then those track are already TOO close and couldn't handle simultaneous traffic.

I was thinking that lower platform heights incentives such behavior. If I'm not wrong, regional trains in Spain run on 515mm platforms, whilst in Belgium and Netherlands the height is 840mm. So maybe (just maybe, speculative moment) these extra 24cm creates a more uninviting environment for track crossing.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 01:23 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
Aaah. Perhaps they simply didn't understand what could happen to them.
It's such a spectacularly idiotic thing to do, I wondered if these people had been drinking or something like that.
The signs are all in Spanish, so they perfectly knew what could happen to them, given the obvious fact that Ecuador, Colombia, and Bolivia speak Spanish, and they currently were living in... Spain.
And if it´s true that the accent is rather different (just as much as the Yorkshire and Texan accents are), "salida->" ("exit->" in Spanish) has exactly the same meaning in both Spanish and Southamerican accents...

As for platform heights, the station had just undergone an upgrading, which precisely included higher platforms (80cm high, now).

I am 1,87m tall, and I assure you it is not an easy thing to do, climbing such a "height", unless you are a can-can cabaret dancer.

Last edited by 437.001; June 26th, 2010 at 01:30 AM.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 01:43 AM   #351
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This is really sad, but no offense, how were all 13 of them stupid enough to get themselves ran over by a train, you can clearly see where the train runs, there is no excuse.

Lowering the speed isn't going to do anything, whether the train is going 30, 60 or 100 mph it is going to kill you, so use common sense.

RIP. revelers.

Last edited by Jay; June 26th, 2010 at 08:49 AM.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 03:55 AM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
This is really sad, but no offense, how were all 13 of them stupid enough to get themselves ran over by a train, you can clearly see where the train runs, there is no excuse.
Because once the crowd sees a few people doing it, they all think it's OK. I would never think about doing such a thing but if loads of people were, in a station I was not familiar with, I might think that is a perfectly normal way out.

One issue with fences is that if someone finds themselves on the track with a train coming they might be unable to jump out the way.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 04:14 AM   #353
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The main reason why, asides from the bloody obvious fact that they just crossed the tracks, is that it was St John´s Eve, which in Eastern Spain is just as big a holiday as New Year´s Eve, so you can imagine the state some of these people must have been in, even if it was 20 to midnight.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 06:07 AM   #354
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What we need is smart people!

Sometimes in my town´s station I have to cross the lines because I don´t have under or above platforms to cross it...and even "knowing" the most part of the timetables I look over and over again to both sides to make sure no train is approaching...and unfortunately a week ago doing this would help a man that died because a "construction train" passed and took his life. I´m pretty convinced, since I heard that he crossed the line in a daily basis, that he knew that regular trains were not passing at that time so we didn´t bother look in any direction...just don´t take things for granted people.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 06:14 AM   #355
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You can only bubble wrap so much to protect the stupid. The key is to educate people not to cross the tracks like that.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 08:52 AM   #356
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The key is to educate people not to cross the tracks like that.
I agree, but if we actually have to start informing people that a 500 tonne machine going 100 mph can kill them then that is just too sad.

Quote:
Because once the crowd sees a few people doing it, they all think it's OK. I would never think about doing such a thing but if loads of people were, in a station I was not familiar with, I might think that is a perfectly normal way out.
So if you saw a crowd of people jumping off a cliff you would go join them? Just look to see if a train is coming, and don't linger because they come fast, it's very simple.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #357
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plain stupidity, and blaming the lack of infrastructure is more stupid. RIP
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Old June 26th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #358
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Darwin award.
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Old June 26th, 2010, 12:46 PM   #359
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Also, on other areas of the same line (Barcelona - Tarragona), there are fences on both sides to prevent people from crossing the tracks outside the stations; however, the day after the fences are put they already have holes allowing people to pass and cross the tracks. It's a cultural problem, and that can't be solved not even with barbed wire.

More than 5 years ago I took several pictures at Cerdanyola Universitat, another commuter station on the Barcelona area serving Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, a well-renombred university. Almost all of the people pictured are students.

On the first introductory picture we can see a stopped train bound for Barcelona waiting for the other train to enter (they share a single track link between the main line depicted here and the Barcelona - Manresa where the commuter trains come from). The main and only exit is on the right side, just behind the stopped train.



Once the train coming from Barcelona stops and opens its doors, about half of the passengers ignore the existing underground pass and en masse they begin to cross the tracks where freight trains run.









Amazingly enough, the queue to cross the tracks can be longer than the one for the underground pass, so many people trying to save some minutes will exit the station later than if they followed the proper path.



Here we have a global view where we can see how all the tracks are occupied by people. At the same time, the station's loudspeakers repeat all the time that the tracks must not be crossed using instead the famous underground passage. About 10 or more times. Obviosly this is completely ignored.





As more and more people reach the end of the tracks and climb to the platform to exit the station, those who follow them need to wait for them to leave enoug spece for them to climb too, so occuping the track even more time. Fortunately, the last track on this station is only used by stopping trains.



This final picture shows a freight train passing. Although from a different day, I took it from the same platform of the other pictures shown. I don't know exactly how much fast the train was going, maybe 80 or 90 kph, but I'm quite sure that if someone was crossing the tracks at the same time the train wouldn't be able to stop in time.

It's terrifying to think that people with a supposed high level of knowledge are able to do such immature things. I'm not surprised by that tragedy, I'm surprised it hadn't happened before.

About the pictures: all of them are available under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Spain licence.

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Old June 26th, 2010, 01:01 PM   #360
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Japan luckily does not have this problem since the platforms are elevated higher so it becomes difficult to climb up. You'll also become considerably dirty climbing up making it further undesirable.
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