Possible London cable car

[SELondoner]

A cable car across the Thames in east London is under consideration by TfL.

It would cross from North Greenwich to Royal Victoria, linking the O2 Arena with ExCeL, two major venues which are each relatively dependent on single lines (Jubilee and DLR respectively) so it will add a lot of transport resilience as well as bringing visitors to the area.



It would have to clear the shipping channel - so at least 50 metres above the water in the centre, and 75 - 80 metres at the towers as the weight of the cable and gondolas means that the cable will sag.

A public consultation is about to be launched. More information will be available at www.tfl.gov.uk/cablecar from next week. Some current media coverage here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ju...ble-car-london

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10501313.stm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2018150.html

[SELondoner]

And coverage on London Reconnections: http://londonreconnections.blogspot....cable-car.html

[stimarco]

I'm not convinced by this. It'll look weird, for a start: the ground is pretty much flat at either end of the proposed route, so what we'll get will bear a strong resemblance to two high-tension electricity pylons.

I'd use the long-standing proposals for a third Blackwall tunnel connecting to the Docklands area to suggest a shuttle bus instead if connections with ExCeL are so important.

If a connection with Crossrail is part of the intent behind this proposal, passengers will be able to reach it by travelling just one stop west on the Jubilee to Canary Wharf and changing. That'll get people to Custom House too.

[HollyBlack]

Originally Posted by stimarco

I'm not convinced by this. It'll look weird, for a start: the ground is pretty much flat at either end of the proposed route, so what we'll get will bear a strong resemblance to two high-tension electricity pylons.
I'd use the long-standing proposals for a third Blackwall tunnel connecting to the Docklands area to suggest a shuttle bus instead if connections with ExCeL are so important. ...

Surely it is intended primarily as a tourist attraction thing with utilitarian use being merely incidental. There is something similar in Barcelona and weird appearance seems to be advantageous in a tourist thing. People like going up really tall towers when they have time to kill.
There was a similar proposal for the Mersey Narrows a while back.

[kerouac1848]

It's a good short-term and easy option that isn't, it seems, going to cost Tfl anything (apart from time and labour) and could potentially take passengers off the DLR and Jubilee line, as well as providing a quicker service between these two points. A tunnel or bridge whilst more useful generally, would cost far more, cause greater disruption and take longer to complete. That being said I do think in the longer-term, we will need a bridge/tunnel to take heavy traffic across, especially as both those areas grow (admittedly over a much longer time frame than originally suggested). But given Tfl's financial position, together with the large number of other projects they have plus the current political and economic orthodoxy (i.e. shrinkage of public money for anything other than, curiously, defence) it will likely be a while before that gets of the ground.

[DMK]

Cable cars do work in some cities but I don't think they are a good idea in London because of its flat terrain. As earlier posters have identified the cable will have to be elevated by butt ugly pylons and though, I am sure, the views from the gondolas will be amazing they will be and eyesore to everyone else. When elevated they are very prone to wind disruption and malfunction so can not be relied upon as a form of transport... more likely the 'ride' would be aimed at tourists and I am sure there are no shortage of private investors queueing up as the 25m would easily pay for itself and make a tidy profit over 10 years. However it will be ugly and degrade this part of London to 'theme park'.

[WatcherZero]

I dont see it working, cable cars arent good at high volumes, they are there for difficult terrain, if this gets busy it will kill itself. Its not perfect but you have Canary Wharf and Canning Town to interchange people to the O2.

Also whats the point of syaing they are both Olympic venues when this wont open till 2017 at the earliest? Is there really demand for people to travel between a conference centre and a concert venue at such a low volume (2500 p/h)? Its not like either end interfaces with other forms of transport either.

[luvthecity]

Oh we LOVE the idea of a Cable Car across the Royal Docks!

http://www.luvthecity.com/2012_Cable..._Olympics.aspx

[Rational Plan]

Actually cable cars are beginning to spread to several South american cities to connect steep hillside communities with the valley floor. http://gondolaproject.com/

While it will never equal a tube line I think 3,000 people per hour per direction (pphd), will be enough for this link. The main use would be to link all the conference goers and hotel guest around it with the additional entertainment options at the dome.

The cost is relatively low and if successful could allow future links along the Thames.

[eXSBass]

Could they just stop faffing about and actually make a bridge which cyclists, padestrians and road users can use. Not only will it releave DLR and Jubilee line stress, but also releave Blackwall tunnel.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

Actually cable cars are beginning to spread to several South american cities to connect steep hillside communities with the valley floor. http://gondolaproject.com/

Well yes but that's it isn't it. They're for steep areas with difficult terrain. aka not London. The money could go towards some far better transport links.

[DMK]

problem is that its private money so unfortunately not transferable to another project. I agree I would far prefer to see a bridge and think it would suit London and the area so much better... problem is, its not a gimicky 'fair ground ride' and no private company will pay for it.

The question is 'this or nothing?'.. and i would much sooner have nothing than yet another hideous Boris Blot paid for by a bank, a steel magnet or more likely in this case - Walt Disney.

[WatcherZero]

I dont think the South American models such a good example:

From the Economist:

FROM Parque Central station in Caracas a cable car silently speeds workers, residents and schoolchildren up the hill to Hornos de Cal and then down again to San Agustín, connecting these areas of self-built slum housing to the city’s metro system. The bright-red cars bear the names of Venezuelan states or of uplifting notions, such as “social duty” or “socialist morality”. Hugo Chávez, Venezuela’s leftist president, opened the metrocable in January, proclaiming: “A socialist revolution has the essential aim of giving to all men and women the greatest possible happiness.”

The metrocable, of just 1.8km, took three years to build and cost $318m—over ten times as much as a longer line opened in Medellín, in Colombia, in 2004. But the local leaders of communal councils—the grassroots groups that Mr Chávez conceives as the driving force of his “Bolivarian revolution”—are indeed happy. “I never thought we would have such a big project in my community,” said María Eugenia Ramírez. “I thought it was just a dream.” Ms Ramírez now has a paid job informing passengers how the system works.

The metrocable is not the only improvement Mr Chávez has brought to San Agustín. Near Hornos de Cal station there is a primary health post, staffed by Cuban doctors, though it is open only in the morning, and a second-tier health clinic, complete with an intensive-care unit. Some of the shacks on the hillsides have had a recent coat of paint, in the regulation colours of another government project (red, yellow, blue or pink). Others were knocked down to make way for the lavish metrocable stations. Their residents were rehoused in new blocks of flats built by Misión Hábitat, yet another government scheme.

Anyway goes on in the larger article to explain these leftist projects were built on oil revenues and dont make commercial sense. Perhaps this should have been Red Kens project funded the savings from his cheap Venezualan oil for engineers deal?

[potto]

why would a tourist go on such a ride? If it linked Excel with the 02 arena there may have been more strategic sense with dealing with transporting ad hoc numbers of people between two 'event' nodes. City Airport is proving a nuisance once again... but as long as the US military doesnt starting using it...

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Well yes but that's it isn't it. They're for steep areas with difficult terrain. aka not London. The money could go towards some far better transport links.

Well the Thames is very wide and a fixed pedestrian/ cycle bridge would be much more expensive. A bridge with sufficient clearance for the river traffic would be very high and require huge approaches.

[Rational Plan]

Originally Posted by WatcherZero

I dont think the South American models such a good example:

From the Economist:


Anyway goes on in the larger article to explain these leftist projects were built on oil revenues and dont make commercial sense. Perhaps this should have been Red Kens project funded the savings from his cheap Venezualan oil for engineers deal?

The high cost of the Caracas scheme was entirely down to using the new cable car network stops as massive integrated buildings that included medical centres, police stations and schools. The actual cable car part was cheap.

The Medillin system is much more cost effective.

I'm not advocating a city wide network, but if they think they get this up and running with little public money, then why not? If it works we can more of them. We are only talking about £25 million here, which htese days will just about build you a DLR station. It will be a while before anyone coughs up a few hundred million for a new road tunnel.

[heywindup]

Considering there is not much for the average tourist to see and do around the O2 and Excel, the cable car proposal isn't really a good investment. I think a better proposal would be to have frequent ferry services (like every 5-10 minutes) between Silvertown, North Greenwich, and Canary Wharf. Also revamp the pedestrian access between the ferry terminal in Silvertown and the Excel centre.

[HollyBlack]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan

The high cost of the Caracas scheme was entirely down to using the new cable car network stops as massive integrated buildings that included medical centres, police stations and schools. The actual cable car part was cheap.
The Medillin system is much more cost effective. ...

The Economist article is majorly and transparently misleading.

The Caracas Metrocable carries 15,000 people a day, the Colombian one is struggling to carry 100,000 a year [stated in error and corrected in a later post]. The Colombian Metrocable was based on imports, the Caracas scheme included technology transfer from Austria and Brazil AND construction of a factory in which to manufacture the equipment. The Economist probably doesn't like the fact that the Caracas metrocable serves poor barrios that otherwise have only steep concrete steps, not even roads, for transport. It is primarily intended to raise living standards in those slum districts by giving good access to the underground metro system.

The article goes on to describe the electricity problems in Venezuela. Venezuela derives 70% of its electricity from hydropower (close to the highest in the world) despite sitting on (arguably) the largest oil reserves.

Obvious bad energy policy decisions were made in the past, but it typically takes at least five years to get a thermal power station up and running, they are trying to do it in two.

The Economist points out how switching to oil will mean lost revenue. They fail to say how much, or rather how little. Venezuela consumes 100TWh of electricity a year. It produces 3 million barrels of crude a day with an energy content of 1.7MWh/barrel. So even in an absurdly extreme worst-case analysis, if you assume a pessimistic conversion ration of 30% and even if Venezuela abandoned hydropower entirely and switched to 100% thermal, that would still be a loss to the economy of less than 3% of oil sales. And of course there is always a possibility that demand is less than supply so domestic oil production can be increased.
In short, Venezuela is doing just fine economically, not to mention huge improvements in health, poverty and human rights. Only the richest people are worse off. The only thing its ordinary people have to fear is fear itself. And perhaps imported insurrection.

[dronkula]

I mentioned this over in the London 2012 transport thread but this is pretty much exactly the same as the original idea for a privately financed cable car system that was meant to go to the Millennium Dome during the 2000 celebrations.

That didn't get off the ground (sorry for the bad pun) because the finances never stacked up. If that didn't work for a year long event, will this really work for the 2 weeks of the Olympics and 2 weeks of the Paralympics?

And will people really have tickets to events in both Excel and the O2 for the same day that follow each other so they'll need a quick and easy why of getting there that getting the DLR and then the tube will be take too long?

[GaFe]

Originally Posted by HollyBlack

The Economist article is majorly and transparently misleading.

The Caracas Metrocable carries 15,000 people a day, the Colombian one is struggling to carry 100,000 a year...

100,000 a year = 274 a day.

Are u serious??