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Old July 16th, 2010, 12:49 AM   #41
thun
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A S-Bahn mainly serves for commuters and therefore has a clocked schedule with frequent stops and are integrated in a transport association. The S-Bahn Zurich fulfills that more than many other S-Bahn systems.
Actually, Hamburg and Berlin are rather the exceptions than the rule by spreading not too much into the countryside but serve almost exclusively their respective urban areas. E. g. the area covered by Munich S-Bahn (also with "only" 4-6 trains per hour and direction on some lines) is much more rural than the region around Zurich. Keep in mind that S-Bahn doesn't have to stand for Stadtbahn or Stadtschnellbahn but can also simply mean Schnellbahn!
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Old July 16th, 2010, 01:10 AM   #42
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Hello. Where are the trolleybuses ?
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Old July 16th, 2010, 03:03 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
A S-Bahn mainly serves for commuters and therefore has a clocked schedule with frequent stops and are integrated in a transport association. The S-Bahn Zurich fulfills that more than many other S-Bahn systems.
Actually, Hamburg and Berlin are rather the exceptions than the rule by spreading not too much into the countryside but serve almost exclusively their respective urban areas. E. g. the area covered by Munich S-Bahn (also with "only" 4-6 trains per hour and direction on some lines) is much more rural than the region around Zurich. Keep in mind that S-Bahn doesn't have to stand for Stadtbahn or Stadtschnellbahn but can also simply mean Schnellbahn!
Exactly what I was thinking.

So basically: Hamburg and Berlin were the first cities to call their rapid transit an S-bahn. They are now the exceptions to the standard definition of what an S-bahn is. The Paris RER is the same; it is the first system to be named so, but it's the exception to the standard definition of an RER (as the RERs in the Francophone part of Switzerland, Algiers and Brussels? are more akin to the Cercanias trains).

But anyway, getting back to Zurich, are there any plans to introduce a U-bahn service to the city 20-30 years down the line?

Last edited by manrush; July 16th, 2010 at 03:09 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 04:32 AM   #44
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Quote:
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A S-Bahn mainly serves for commuters and therefore has a clocked schedule with frequent stops and are integrated in a transport association.
An S-Bahn serves all kind of transport purposes in a city not just commutes. Neither are clocked time tables and integration in tariff union a unique characteristic of an S-Bahn.
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Actually, Hamburg and Berlin are rather the exceptions than the rule by spreading not too much into the countryside but serve almost exclusively their respective urban areas.
Wer hat's erfunden? Berlin is not the exception, it set the rules. The S-Bahn was invented and perfected there.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 04:43 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
An S-Bahn serves all kind of transport purposes in a city not just commutes. Neither are clocked time tables and integration in tariff union a unique characteristic of an S-Bahn.

Wer hat's erfunden? Berlin is not the exception, it set the rules. The S-Bahn was invented and perfected there.
Yes, it set the rules. But every other city in the German-speaking world flouted those rules. Their definition of the S-bahn became commonplace, thus making Berlin's and Hamburg's S-bahn the two exceptions.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 08:28 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linea2 View Post
Hello. Where are the trolleybuses ?
Coming, I am finishing the trams first.

Former tram types:
Be 4/6 «Mirage»
This tram has been used between 1968 and 2010. It has 47 seats, a carriage with the same size could be attached.



Be 4/4 «Karpfen»
This type was used from 1940 to 2006. It had 32 seats, a carriage with the same size could be attached.


A picture of historical trams:
image hosted on flickr
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Old July 16th, 2010, 08:47 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
An S-Bahn serves all kind of transport purposes in a city not just commutes. Neither are clocked time tables and integration in tariff union a unique characteristic of an S-Bahn.
These are the Swiss standards for S-Bahn
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* mindestens Halbstundentakt (at least 1 train every 30min)
* Existenz von Durchmesserlinien (existence of through-lines)
* Durchschnittsgeschwindigkeit von ca. 50 km/h (average speed of min. 50km/h)
* Einheitliche Tarife (uniform tarifes)
* Einheitliches Erscheinungsbild und Kommunikation gegenüber den Kunden (uniform design and marketing)
* Koordination und Vernetzung mit anderen Verkehrsunternehmen (coordination and networking with other traffic companies)
As Zürich is a Swiss city, these standards apply. We have different standards for lots of things. And our Motorway are called Autobahnen even you can only drive 120km/h on it.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 11:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manrush View Post
But anyway, getting back to Zurich, are there any plans to introduce a U-bahn service to the city 20-30 years down the line?
No, and a project for a metro line has been refused in 1973: http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/...5_2.html#ubahn
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Old July 16th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #49
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Zurich does not need a metro system. I found the system to be quick, and efficient.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
* Einheitliches Erscheinungsbild und Kommunikation gegenüber den Kunden (uniform appearance and marketing)
It obviously fails to fulfil this point.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It obviously fails to fulfil this point.
The SZU and Forchbahn unfortantly don't use the same color scheme, even through the scheme of the SBB trainsets have changed too.

Probably a compromize as those organization wouldn't be part of the ZVV otherwise.

Quite ironic as the S10 would probably fit your definitions (strictly urban-suburban/non-rural, high frequencies)
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Old July 16th, 2010, 06:16 PM   #52
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Why don't you stay out of the thread, flierfy? Seriously, what's your point? Berlin has the only S-Bahn system, is that what you want to tell us?

If you believe that so be it. But unlike Berlin's system, the Zurich one actually works. So please stop ruining the thread.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #53
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"Einheitliches Erscheinungsbild" most certainly refers to public communication like in advertisement, guidance, information media, etc. and not specifically to the corporate design of the train operator (btw., almost all Swiss S-Bahn systems have more than one operator).

If we would take your absolutistic definition, fierfly, we actually wouldn't drive cars nowadays because the Benz Motorwagen was a tricycle.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
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If we would take your absolutistic definition, fierfly, we actually wouldn't drive cars nowadays because the Benz Motorwagen was a tricycle.
That's an inappropriate allegory. Motor vehicles have improved a lot since Benz. S-Bahn networks, however, haven't. Ever since Berlin had its S-Bahn up and running the concept was adopted and adjusted by other cities. They had similar transport problems. So it was natural to tackled them with similar solutions. But as each city is different and so are their S-Bahn networks. With every new network the concept of an S-Bahn was diluted.

Zürich was another low point in the deterioration of the standards. Trains to Singen and Ziegelbrücke are far off the idea of a Stadtschnellbahn. And with the introduction of even more such networks Switzerland is now widely covered with 'S-Bahn' networks but none of them has much to do with the original idea of a metro-like rail service in the densely populated urban space of big cities.

What I advocate is to go the way of Basel or Bremen which communicate the difference between the quiet rural networks and the frequent and crowded services in big cities. There is no reason to use the same term for different services.
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Old July 17th, 2010, 11:47 AM   #55
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Just like there is no reason NOT to use the same term.
Finally, it's a well-introduced brand for rail commuter service. So why not to use it?

Saying that S-Bahn networks haven't improved is quite strange. Finally, we don't live like in the 20ies anymore. Nowadays lots of people live in the rural suburbs quite far from their workplace, so they have to commute long distances. Transport services (and the S-Bahn is no exception) had to adapt, and they did. Hence the S-Bahn of Munich or Zurich is completely different than the one in Berlin, but serves exactly the same purpose.
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Old July 18th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #56
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What is the route length (not track length) and annual patronage of the Zurich tram system?

What is the annual patronage of the S-bahn?
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Old July 18th, 2010, 01:12 AM   #57
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Track length is about 70 km, I don't know the route length. Traffic on the S-Bahn is around 300.000 trips per day.

And for the urban network:

Fahrgäste (EinsteigerInnen) Mio. (number of passengers)
199.0 Tramlinien
54.3 Trolleybuslinien
37.8 Autobuslinien Stadtnetz
2.6 Quartierbuslinien
21.3 Autobuslinien Agglomeration
0.3 Nachtnetz
315.3 Total


Personenkilometer Mio.
352.5 Tramlinien
118.3 Trolleybuslinien
78.8 Autobuslinien Stadtnetz
3.8 Quartierbuslinien
64.1 Autobuslinien Agglomeration
1.2 Nachtnetz
618.7 Total

From http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/vbz/de/i...astzahlen.html
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Old July 18th, 2010, 01:39 AM   #58
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Thank you Coccodrillo
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Old July 18th, 2010, 10:40 AM   #59
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Trolley Buses:

BGGT-N2C - lighTram - "longo"
This double joint bus runs on the 31 line. It has 60 seats





Hess BGT-N2C 145–161 «Swisstrolley 3»

Unfortunately I didn't found a pic from Zürich, this is from Luzern, looks almost the same.

Mercedes-Benz O 405 GTZ
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Old July 18th, 2010, 01:31 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Just like there is no reason NOT to use the same term.
It's about "S-Bahn". I think firefiler has SOME right, but not completely. Ther are several rail networks called as S-Bahn in the German speaking world that has almost nothing common with the original idea of S-Bahn Berlin: e.g. Zentralschweiz (Luzern), Ortenau-S-Bahn, St. Gallen, etc., and I mean the secondary lines of Zürich (Uetlibergbahn, Forchbahn) belong to this list as well.
I think we shall not be too sctrict. S-Bahn in München or Frankfurt has the very same main idea as the one in Berlin or Hamburg, only the technical solutions are different so that using the same name is OK. And it is also true for the main lines of Zürich (the ones of SBB which use the Hirschgrabentunnel) but not for SZU or Forchbahn.

At least it is my opinion :-)
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