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Old July 18th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #61
Eurotram
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EarthJoker,could you answer me some question?I know there was a prototype-trolleybus based on Mercedes O405GN2 (probably the only articulated low-floor Mercedes trolleybus).I know it was in use in late 90's,but what has happened to this vehicle?

Besides I visited Zurich few years ago and I was impressed by it's public transport: trams running very often (many of them were Tram 2000 in "double-traction"),maaaany lines of S-bahn and lot of trolleybuses (a real paradise for a city-transport fan ).
I live in urban area with quite well developed tram system (in one city),quite well developed trolleybus system (in the other city) and with one (!) S-bahn line joining the whole urban area..But we can only dream about trams longer than 30 m (35 30-meter long low-floor trams were ordered but not yet delivered; for now almost all the tram-sets are ca. 26-27 meter long) in nearly HALF-MILLION-PEOPLE CITY; we can only dream about articulated trolleybuses (not even thinking about double articulated) in that other city (250000 people!) and still waiting for the first NEW S-bahn train from since 1990 (all of them were delivered as old-fashioned trainsets)!In few years there will be better (35 new trams, 25 new SINGLE trolleybuses,new tram- and trolleybus-tracks,new S-bahn line and few new trainsets) but it will be still not as in well developed urban areas (look at Gdansk or Gdynia and then you'll know what I'm writing about).But fortunately there are some places like Zurich...

O BTW: there were plans to connect Trams 2000 (those modernized,with Sanfte low-floor section) to Pony-trailer.Were those trials successfull or not?
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Old July 18th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #62
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The problem is that almost any regional railway after upgrading and improving the service is called S-Bahn in Switzerland. Those provide good service and improve public transportation but have nothing common with a S-Bahn at all. As the term S-Bahn is used now it just means a train which is stopping at every station. The inflationary use of the term s-Bahn has completely changed the original definition. Another problem in small Switzerland is that the S-Bahn network are overlapping each other creating confusion amongst passenger. e.g Zug is served by Zürich S9,S21 and Zuger Stadtbahn S1 and S2. Thus the original ZVV line S1 had to be renamed to S21. After Zurich success every canton want to have its own S-Bahn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
It's about "S-Bahn". I think firefiler has SOME right, but not completely. Ther are several rail networks called as S-Bahn in the German speaking world that has almost nothing common with the original idea of S-Bahn Berlin: e.g. Zentralschweiz (Luzern), Ortenau-S-Bahn, St. Gallen, etc., and I mean the secondary lines of Zürich (Uetlibergbahn, Forchbahn) belong to this list as well.
I think we shall not be too sctrict. S-Bahn in München or Frankfurt has the very same main idea as the one in Berlin or Hamburg, only the technical solutions are different so that using the same name is OK. And it is also true for the main lines of Zürich (the ones of SBB which use the Hirschgrabentunnel) but not for SZU or Forchbahn.

At least it is my opinion :-)
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Old July 18th, 2010, 09:22 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railzilla View Post
The problem is that almost any regional railway after upgrading and improving the service is called S-Bahn in Switzerland. Those provide good service and improve public transportation but have nothing common with a S-Bahn at all. As the term S-Bahn is used now it just means a train which is stopping at every station. The inflationary use of the term s-Bahn has completely changed the original definition. Another problem in small Switzerland is that the S-Bahn network are overlapping each other creating confusion amongst passenger. e.g Zug is served by Zürich S9,S21 and Zuger Stadtbahn S1 and S2. Thus the original ZVV line S1 had to be renamed to S21. After Zurich success every canton want to have its own S-Bahn.
I see it that way: many (sometimes all) of commuter trains were called S-bahn and run with other (real) S-bahn trains in Zurich S-bahn system according to one (unified) tariff. I wrote "commuter trains" not just for fun: in some countries commuter rail is equal with S-bahn,in other countries - not;it's just like about definition of "light rail": in GB and USA they call it many means of transport,which eg. Germans call with different names (from Strassenbahn through Stadtbahn to light kinds of S-bahn).
Maybe in someone in Switzerland had an idea to UNIFY THE TARIFF and due to this all these line were renamed to Sxx? And when one guy had this idea,then other rail organizers in other cities and countries decided to do the same...
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Old July 19th, 2010, 09:56 AM   #64
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Unify the tariff also includes Bus,Tram,Ships and even Aerial Tram. So renaming the train service is not necessary. For Busses there are still many companies inside a tariff union like ZVV an all companies have their own painting scheme.
And yes unify the tariff and make it possible to use one ticket for the whole ride did contribute as much as building new rail lines.
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Old July 19th, 2010, 09:58 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
EarthJoker,could you answer me some question?I know there was a prototype-trolleybus based on Mercedes O405GN2 (probably the only articulated low-floor Mercedes trolleybus).I know it was in use in late 90's,but what has happened to this vehicle?
I know of a trolleybus prototype with 3 doors (all other trolleybuses have 4), but I don't remember if it had high or low floor (N=niederflur=low floor). It is out of service since 2007, after having been used for training for a few months.

http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/

http://www.proaktiva.ch/trolleybus/

http://www.proaktiva.ch/trolleybus/f...n&type=O405GTZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
O BTW: there were plans to connect Trams 2000 (those modernized,with Sanfte low-floor section) to Pony-trailer.Were those trials successfull or not?
One set of them is already operating: http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/...og.html#120710
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Old July 19th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I know of a trolleybus prototype with 3 doors (all other trolleybuses have 4), but I don't remember if it had high or low floor (N=niederflur=low floor). It is out of service since 2007, after having been used for training for a few months.

http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/

http://www.proaktiva.ch/trolleybus/

http://www.proaktiva.ch/trolleybus/f...n&type=O405GTZ
I know about Proaktiva site,but I haven't read that list before (maybe because quite hot news are put on TrolleyMotion and no more than two weeks ago I found aktual list of VBZ-Trollebuses on some other site than Proaktiva.news ). But thanks for this link,I found this vehicle (I forgot it's code-name,but now I remember: it was Mercedes O405GNTD and there is written,that it was withdrawn in 1999!Why so early?Was that caused by problems with some systems?And the most important question: if this Mercedes was scrapped or sold to another operator?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
One set of them is already operating: http://www.proaktiva.ch/tram/zurich/...og.html#120710
Now I see: news are fresh (just one week old);I visited Proaktiva site about two weeks ago so I couldn't notice that

Last edited by Eurotram; July 19th, 2010 at 01:23 PM.
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Old July 19th, 2010, 12:15 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
It's about "S-Bahn". I think firefiler has SOME right, but not completely. Ther are several rail networks called as S-Bahn in the German speaking world that has almost nothing common with the original idea of S-Bahn Berlin: e.g. Zentralschweiz (Luzern), Ortenau-S-Bahn, St. Gallen, etc., and I mean the secondary lines of Zürich (Uetlibergbahn, Forchbahn) belong to this list as well.
I think we shall not be too sctrict. S-Bahn in München or Frankfurt has the very same main idea as the one in Berlin or Hamburg, only the technical solutions are different so that using the same name is OK. And it is also true for the main lines of Zürich (the ones of SBB which use the Hirschgrabentunnel) but not for SZU or Forchbahn.

At least it is my opinion :-)
Yeah, I can agree with that partially. I would appreciate a system where trains that are regional us a R instead of a S. But still I won't agree with firefiler, because his systematics are so narrow that only a few cities would have S-Bahns.

And I don't agree with you on the SZU either, it serves almost exclusively within the city and close suburbs, with the exceptions of two stations (Uetliberg and Sihlwald).
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Old July 19th, 2010, 02:36 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Yeah, I can agree with that partially. I would appreciate a system where trains that are regional us a R instead of a S. But still I won't agree with firefiler, because his systematics are so narrow that only a few cities would have S-Bahns.

And I don't agree with you on the SZU either, it serves almost exclusively within the city and close suburbs, with the exceptions of two stations (Uetliberg and Sihlwald).
I'm following your (your with Flierfy and Attus) discussion and now I see I forgot about one very important function of S-bahn.And it drives me to a conlusion,that... you ALL are right!But only with SOMEONE'S PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW. I'll explain you what I'm writing about.We had some similar discussion in our urban area.Our only line of S-bahn is "divided" into few sections:
- the main one,"historical",from Gdańsk to Gdynia,
- newer extension from Gdynia to Wejherowo (but from Rumia to Wejherowo trains go by the regio-track;
- "extensions" to Pruszcz Gdański,Tczew and Słupsk (-teen pairs of trains a day,on weekends less);those trains go by the regio-tracks

On the main line trains go every 10 minutes (a month ago there was every 7-8 minutes),form Gdynia to Wejherowo 4 times an hour in peak hours,on weekends even every 30 minutes).

And there was a quarrel if SKM Trojmiasto (operator of our S-bahn) should operate trains to Słupski or Tczew; opponents said that should be regio trains operated by regio operators (especially for the rolling stock should differ from that from the main line).BTW: the main line is a backbone of our urban area (Gdańsk + Gdynia + Sopot it's ca. 750000 people, the whole urban area is ca. 1 Mio people),the rolling stock should be like of metro-type or "real" S-bahn-type (unfortunately isn't).
But what was the conclusion of this quarrel: those trains should be served by S-bahn not only for the tariff is cheaper than regio trains,but due to PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT! The organizers wanted people from Tczew or Pruszcz Gdański feel PART OF THE TRICITY URBAN AREA. And they wanted to strengthen (also psychological) connection between Słupsk (included in 1999 to Pomeranian voivodship; till 1999 it was capital of it's own voivodship) and Tricity.
So Flierfy is right writing about S-bahn as a backbone of the big agglomeration's transport system,providing transport for tousands of passenges INSIDE of a big city.But there is another side of this coin (meaning that his opponents are also right): for example Rapperswil is an "independent" town,but is also "counted" as a part of Zurich's urban area.And that's why S-bahn goes there: to make people in Rapperswil (and other towns) feel they are part of Zurich's urban area...
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Old July 19th, 2010, 03:16 PM   #69
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When I get home, I will try to overlie the agglomeration map of Zürich with the S-Bahn network. Then we will easily see, where the S-Bahn network extends into rural areas.
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Old July 19th, 2010, 08:00 PM   #70
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Here is my overlay.

Red are the core cities, orange the agglomerations, green is rural.
The yellow fields are "isolated towns" (towns that don't fit in any of the above categories).

I think one can clearly see that most of the lines follow the agglomeration. Or the agglomeration followed the S-Bahn?
There are exceptions like the S22, S26, S29, S30... those could be called R22, R26.. IMO, but as they are integrated in the same schedule as the others it is not really necessary.
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Old July 19th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #71
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You have reason, there wasn't only the O405GTZ with 3 doors, but also the O405GNTD (Gelenk-Niederflur-Trolley-Diesel). I haven't more infos about that.
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Old July 19th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #72
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I've found some interesting picture:

probably seen by many of you before. It's a METROPOLITAN AREA OF ZURICH.
Look at this picture:this area includes many smaller cantons and towns,stopping just before some major (and important) cities: Basel and Luzern.
Apart just a few differences (which I can explain) it's similar to plan of Zurich S-bahn put by EarthJoker two posts above.Explanation of those small differences is simple: Basel,Luzern an St Gallen are cities big enough to create their own S-bahn system (which they've done).So we get to the conclusion,that ZURICH'S S-BAHN IS SERVING THE METROPOLITAN AREA OF ZURICH. And this means that calling these trains "S-bahn" is absolutely justified

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
You have reason, there wasn't only the O405GTZ with 3 doors, but also the O405GNTD (Gelenk-Niederflur-Trolley-Diesel).
So...?Because I don't understand it at all what you mean...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo
I haven't more infos about that.
I'll try to find some info by another way.Anyway thanks for answering.

EDIT: I've found some more informations about that vehicle:
http://www.obus-es.de/th_51.htm

Last edited by Eurotram; July 19th, 2010 at 11:47 PM.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 01:51 AM   #73
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If an S-Bahn were meant for agglomeration-wide rail services it would be called A-Bahn. It just isn't. It's short for Stadtschnellbahn as it emphasises the urban character. But there are simply not enough urban areas in the agglomeration Zürich to give reason for this name.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 08:32 AM   #74
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Have you been to the outskirts of Zurich at some point at all?
E. g. the region between Winterthur and Lenzburg or both shores of Lake Zurich are very urban.
Btw., S-Bahn can stand for Schnellbahn as well. Afaik, in Switzerland the term S-Bahn is used without being the short form for some concept.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 08:47 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eurotram View Post
I've found some interesting picture:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s/b/bc/GZA.png
probably seen by many of you before. It's a METROPOLITAN AREA OF ZURICH.
I intentionally didn't used the metropolitan area, as it is quite loose. The agglomeration map is based on hard data (connectivity between the municipality, number of workers commuting to the city).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
If an S-Bahn were meant for agglomeration-wide rail services it would be called A-Bahn. It just isn't. It's short for Stadtschnellbahn as it emphasises the urban character. But there are simply not enough urban areas in the agglomeration Zürich to give reason for this name.
Nowadays the term "Stadt" is used for the city including its suburbs. The understanding that the city is defined by its core and the rest is countryside is outdated. The reason for this is simple. Modern transportation! Things like cars, free-ways and the S-Bahn itself made it possible that people could live further and further from the city centre while they are still part of the city.
The expansion of the S-Bahn to the outskirts of the city is just the result of the new lifestyle, which has changed a lot since 1920.

BTW:
Quote:
Zum 1. Dezember 1930 wurden schließlich die Berliner Stadt-, Ring- und Vorortbahnen unter dem Namen „S-Bahn“ zusammengefasst, Symbol sollte ein weißes „S“ auf grünem Grund sein, als Gegenstück zum weißen „U“ auf blauem Grund der U-Bahn.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #76
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Look this discussion is pointless, S-Bahn can be a lot of things.

Just look at Vienna, the original Stadtbahn was divided into two system: A part became the metro (U-Bahn) and another part became S-Bahn. Now there are some S-Bahn lines such as S45 which are basically not distinguishable from the U-Bahn (except for the different train stock) and other lines are only running every 30min or so. Now is that a real S-Bahn or not? Are only some lines a true S-Bahn and others not? And is the metro which runs on former Stadtbahntracks a metro or an S-Bahn?

It's pointless. The system is called S-Bahn in Zurich and that's it. Berlin doesn't set the standard! If it would, all system would have to use a horribly outdated traincontrol system and in 2009 for weeks there would have been no traffic in the inner city at all, and up till now there would be chaos due to malfunctioning trainsets.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 03:42 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Afaik, in Switzerland the term S-Bahn is used without being the short form for some concept.
This is exactly what I mean. Every other rail service is tagged S-Bahn nowadays. The original idea is almost lost. All the positive characteristics that were once associated with an S-Bahn were exploited, diluted and got lost in the randomness of its usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
Nowadays the term "Stadt" is used for the city including its suburbs. The understanding that the city is defined by its core and the rest is countryside is outdated. The reason for this is simple. Modern transportation! Things like cars, free-ways and the S-Bahn itself made it possible that people could live further and further from the city centre while they are still part of the city.
The expansion of the S-Bahn to the outskirts of the city is just the result of the new lifestyle, which has changed a lot since 1920.
An agglomeration is referred to as such for a good reason. There is still a distinction between the city as the urban core of a conurbation and their suburban surroundings. Anyway, the whole issue is far too complex to discuss it in this thread.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #78
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Maybe its too complex. But we can agree on the fact that nowadays, lots of people commute from the suburbs into the city, can't we? Therefore, you simply can't compare cities like Berlin or Hamburg (where basically a huge part of the agglomeration lies within the city boundaries) to cities like Zurich or Stuttgart. A S-Bahn has to cover densely populated areas where people commute to the city. In fact, Swiss towns like Baden, Thalwil, Kloten, etc. work like a neighbourhood of Zurich and wouldn't be independent, but part of the core city if Zurich would be in Germany.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 05:21 PM   #79
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I never doubted that. I just have a different idea of what densely populated means. And I wouldn't constrict the purpose of an S-Bahn to commutes. But that is it from me now.
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Old July 20th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #80
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Quote:
This is exactly what I mean. Every other rail service is tagged S-Bahn nowadays. The original idea is almost lost. All the positive characteristics that were once associated with an S-Bahn were exploited, diluted and got lost in the randomness of its usage.
So what? Change happens. The original idea is "lost" and then replaced by new ideas. It's always been that way.
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