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Old March 17th, 2011, 07:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
A look at a topographic map of Brazil shows the problems of rail involving BH and Brasilia. I think Curitiba is a possibility, I don't remember the bus ride from Sao Paulo to there being particularly hilly (not that this a good method of judgement).
Curitiba and Belo Horizonte are surrounded by hills, Brasilia is more easily accessible (it is high, 1100m altitude, but it is on a gently plateau sparsely populated)

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A North East network from Fortaleza to Salvador makes sense on paper, not sure about economically.
Distances would be huge. Road distance Salvador-Fortaleza (coastal route more or less) is 1470km. There are many touristic hot spots, though, and that area of the coast in home to many resorts catering to Europeans travelling on charter flights, so there is some potential of local demand + tourism.

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Anyway, the best thing to assist inter-city travel in the short-term would be to deregulate the bus network in some form. Some of the trips are quite expensive and with awkward leaving times I think.
They are going to put most long-distance bus services on tender this semester. But model will not change much, there is a heavy anti-deregulation lobby. In any case, medium- and long-distance buses are losing market fast, more than 60% decrease in km*passengers since their heyday in 1996.
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Old March 18th, 2011, 03:33 AM   #42
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Curitiba and Belo Horizonte are surrounded by hills, Brasilia is more easily accessible (it is high, 1100m altitude, but it is on a gently plateau sparsely populated)
I was thinking in relation to getting to SP or Rio. In the latter case it would have to go through MG wouldn't it?

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Distances would be huge. Road distance Salvador-Fortaleza (coastal route more or less) is 1470km. There are many touristic hot spots, though, and that area of the coast in home to many resorts catering to Europeans travelling on charter flights, so there is some potential of local demand + tourism.
Between those two cities, yes. But Natal to Fortaleza, or Recife to Salvador (or Natal) are both under 700km. Having a physical line between Fortaleza and Salvador doesn't mean a service between those cities (although at an average speed of 340km you're talking the same time as London to Glasgow currently, just over 4hrs)

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They are going to put most long-distance bus services on tender this semester. But model will not change much, there is a heavy anti-deregulation lobby. In any case, medium- and long-distance buses are losing market fast, more than 60% decrease in km*passengers since their heyday in 1996.
Is the model shift to car or plane? Personally, I thought the number of new and newish cars in Brazil was quite high (much higher than the part of Argentina I went to). Planes on the other hand still seem expensive, certainly compared to Europe or the US where competition is much greater.

A competitive inter-city bus network would be so beneficial.
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Old March 18th, 2011, 03:49 AM   #43
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What are the railways with passanger traffic active nowadays in Brazil?
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Old March 18th, 2011, 11:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
Is the model shift to car or plane? Personally, I thought the number of new and newish cars in Brazil was quite high (much higher than the part of Argentina I went to). Planes on the other hand still seem expensive, certainly compared to Europe or the US where competition is much greater.
Cars in the case of short and medium distances, planes in the case of long journeys. Air travel in Brazil was so expensive until the late 1990's that is was rather common for anyone not middle-upper class to travel distances like 1.000, 1.500km by bus on gruesome journeys of 14, 20, 30 hours on buses, or driving with families in multi-day trips to their relatives.

Those days are now mostly over, long distance bus travel took an immense and deserved hit. It is borderline unhealthy to have someone in a bus for 30 hours. Now there are competitive air fares for those long relations.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #45
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I'm kind of wondering why this isn't being built to 1435 mm.

Mike
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Because, save for a small mining railroad and a handful of urban subways, there is no other 1453mm railways in Brazil.
North of Belem (from Belem to Macapa and more) will be 1435mm gauge tracks.
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Old April 9th, 2011, 04:45 PM   #46
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North of Belem (from Belem to Macapa and more) will be 1435mm gauge tracks.
Only that there is no plan, whatsoever, to link both cities by rail or road.
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Old June 12th, 2011, 06:58 AM   #47
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Only that there is no plan, whatsoever, to link both cities by rail or road.
Anyway, 1435mm network north of Belem must be built.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 02:13 AM   #48
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What are the railways with passanger traffic active nowadays in Brazil?
Only the two services operated by Vale. One linking Belo Horizonte to Vitória and another linking São Luís do Maranhão to Carajás, Pará.

The others are mostly touristic services (such as the Curituba - Paranaguá "Litorina") of little use as practical means of transportation.
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Old June 13th, 2011, 05:44 AM   #49
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Only the two services operated by Vale. One linking Belo Horizonte to Vitória and another linking São Luís do Maranhão to Carajás, Pará.

The others are mostly touristic services (such as the Curituba - Paranaguá "Litorina") of little use as practical means of transportation.
Are the HSR lines the only planned intercity rail, so far?
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Old June 13th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #50
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Are the HSR lines the only planned intercity rail, so far?
There are tons of planned lines, but our currupt and opressive leftist overlords are all about taking and no action. Something like 20 lines are planned, but not a single stone has been moved yet in any of them. The planned lines are:

High Speed Lines

* TAV Rio de Janeiro - São Paulo - Campinas
* TAV Belo Horizonte - São Paulo - Curitiba (not a real plan, just a vague idea for a far future)

São Paulo State Passenger Rail:

*São Paulo-Santos (some planning moving forward)
*São Paulo-Sorocaba (some planning moving forward)
*São Paulo-São José dos Campos (mentioned and forgotten)
*São Paulo-Campinas-Araraquara (seams forgotten too)

Lines which got some federal planning funding (See http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...hp?t=1025703):

*Londrina a Maringá (Paraná)
*Bento Gonçalves a Caxias do Sul (Rio Grande do Sul).

Other lines proposed by the federal government lines:

São Cristóvão – Aracaju – Laranjeiras - (Sergipe)
Recife – Caruaru – (Pernambuco)
Campos – Macaé – (Rio de Janeiro)
Belo Horizonte - Ouro Preto / Cons. Lafaiete – (Minas Gerais)
Itajaí – Blumenau - Rio do Sul – (Santa Catarina)
Pelotas - Rio Grande – (Rio Grande do Sul)
Campinas – Araraquara – (São Paulo)
Santa Cruz – Mangaratiba – (Rio Janeiro)
Bocaiúva - Montes Claros – Janaúba – (Minas Gerais)
São Paulo – Sorocaba - Itapetininga (São Paulo)
Conceição da Feira - Salvador – Alagoinhas (Bahia)
Codó – Teresina – (Maranhão / Piauí)

Of those lines Codó-Caxias-Timon-Teresina-Altos has the most chance of moving forward in the next years, because they actually already recently reactivated trains running between Timon and Teresina and they reactivated the Timon rail station. The entire system is precarious, but with proper federal funding they could improve the infrastructure and implement a decent system. Those things were funded by the state governments, so we can see here that the federal government couldn't care less about passenger rail.

São Paulo-Sorocaba also has some chance of moving forward, but funded by the state government as previously mentioned.

The rest might have been mentioned a couple of times by local politicians, but noone really wants to do anything about them in the state government and the feds couldn't care less, so I doubt they will get even projected.

Every 2 years (not a coincidence that elections are every 2 years too) the government releases some "plans" for passenger rail just to pretent that they are doing something.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 03:33 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by nagara373 View Post
Anyway, 1435mm network north of Belem must be built.
As far as I know, all new railways in Brazil must be built in broad gauge (1600 mm)
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Old June 16th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #52
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As for Wikipedia brazilian 1600 mm gauge network is not so extensive (4000 km), considering to build and convert lines to standard gauge would be a better idea, in my opinion.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 04:50 PM   #53
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As for Wikipedia brazilian 1600 mm gauge network is not so extensive (4000 km), considering to build and convert lines to standard gauge would be a better idea, in my opinion.
Brazilian broad gauge network is about to gain 1.320km of a new freight railway - Norte-Sul - (major work completed, now on commissioning procedures, tests etc). Furthermore, there are another freight railway - Transnordestina - u/c on broad gauge (~1200km) and 5100km of freight railways on advanced planning stage, all broad gauge.

These new railways are fit with sleepers suitable for installation of dual gauge (e.g., a third tracking rail) allowing 1000mm consists to travel over them, but it is uncertain when, and if, they will fit them for dual gauge traffic.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Brazilian broad gauge network is about to gain 1.320km of a new freight railway - Norte-Sul - (major work completed, now on commissioning procedures, tests etc). Furthermore, there are another freight railway - Transnordestina - u/c on broad gauge (~1200km) and 5100km of freight railways on advanced planning stage, all broad gauge.

These new railways are fit with sleepers suitable for installation of dual gauge (e.g., a third tracking rail) allowing 1000mm consists to travel over them, but it is uncertain when, and if, they will fit them for dual gauge traffic.
It still strikes me as an odd thing to do. According to wikipedia, the bulk (~23500 km) of the Brazilian railways are 1000mm and I suppose they'll be enlarged, so why not standardize all of it to 1435mm and build new ones on standard gauge?
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Old June 16th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #55
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It still strikes me as an odd thing to do. According to wikipedia, the bulk (~23500 km) of the Brazilian railways are 1000mm and I suppose they'll be enlarged, so why not standardize all of it to 1435mm and build new ones on standard gauge?
Brazil is not standarizing at 1,6m, it is simply not standarizing at all. They are just using what fits the needs and conects better at each project. For most new projects 1,6m was the best, but there are also new rail projects for 1,0m in Paraná for example.

The main reason for not working on standarizing is: The private operators don't want a standarization because they already have rolling stock for the current gauges. They don't want to buy new rolling stock just for achieving long term benefits. They don't care about benefits in 30-60 years from now. The government and rulling party as well don't care about the long run, so they would not invest in something which will only bring benefits so far away.

But there are also good side effects of not using the international gauge: it is a kind of proteccionism, and it generates industrial jobs in Brazil because rail companies are (to a certain degree) forced to buy rail stock built in Brazil, instead of, for example, bringing in rolling stock from China. If Brazil was expecting to get competitive and export rolling stock, then international gauge would be better, but as things are going, I don't see Brazil being able to compete against China in that area, so at least securing home sales is already a victory for the Brazilian rolling stock industry.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #56
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But there are also good side effects of not using the international gauge: it is a kind of proteccionism, and it generates industrial jobs in Brazil because rail companies are (to a certain degree) forced to buy rail stock built in Brazil, instead of, for example, bringing in rolling stock from China. If Brazil was expecting to get competitive and export rolling stock, then international gauge would be better, but as things are going, I don't see Brazil being able to compete against China in that area, so at least securing home sales is already a victory for the Brazilian rolling stock industry.
Wrong on two counts:

(1) Locos are routinely bought from major diesel loco makers like GE

(2) The adaptation of container and bulk cargo carts to 1,6m or 1,0m gauge is not significant enough, from an engineering point, to crowd out international suppliers of rolling stock.
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Old June 16th, 2011, 08:31 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Wrong on two counts:

(1) Locos are routinely bought from major diesel loco makers like GE
GE's factory in Brazil AFAIK

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(2) The adaptation of container and bulk cargo carts to 1,6m or 1,0m gauge is not significant enough, from an engineering point, to crowd out international suppliers of rolling stock.
It adds a competitive advantage for local suppliers. I don't know exactly how much it is, maybe 10%, but it is a head start at least.

If it adds no advantage, then why is the rolling stock overwhelmingly bought from local suppliers? I bet that chinese rolling stock is cheaper anytime, but they would need to adapt their projects for 1,6m which they might not care to do.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 05:12 AM   #58
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As far as I know, all new railways in Brazil must be built in broad gauge (1600 mm)
Northern Brazil (North of Belem) must be built in 1435mm, not 1600mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
As for Wikipedia brazilian 1600 mm gauge network is not so extensive (4000 km), considering to build and convert lines to standard gauge would be a better idea, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Brazilian broad gauge network is about to gain 1.320km of a new freight railway - Norte-Sul - (major work completed, now on commissioning procedures, tests etc). Furthermore, there are another freight railway - Transnordestina - u/c on broad gauge (~1200km) and 5100km of freight railways on advanced planning stage, all broad gauge.

These new railways are fit with sleepers suitable for installation of dual gauge (e.g., a third tracking rail) allowing 1000mm consists to travel over them, but it is uncertain when, and if, they will fit them for dual gauge traffic.
Amazon area is 1435mm, not 1600mm.

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Originally Posted by TheAnalyst View Post
It still strikes me as an odd thing to do. According to wikipedia, the bulk (~23500 km) of the Brazilian railways are 1000mm and I suppose they'll be enlarged, so why not standardize all of it to 1435mm and build new ones on standard gauge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Brazil is not standarizing at 1,6m, it is simply not standarizing at all. They are just using what fits the needs and conects better at each project. For most new projects 1,6m was the best, but there are also new rail projects for 1,0m in Paraná for example.

The main reason for not working on standarizing is: The private operators don't want a standarization because they already have rolling stock for the current gauges. They don't want to buy new rolling stock just for achieving long term benefits. They don't care about benefits in 30-60 years from now. The government and rulling party as well don't care about the long run, so they would not invest in something which will only bring benefits so far away.

But there are also good side effects of not using the international gauge: it is a kind of proteccionism, and it generates industrial jobs in Brazil because rail companies are (to a certain degree) forced to buy rail stock built in Brazil, instead of, for example, bringing in rolling stock from China. If Brazil was expecting to get competitive and export rolling stock, then international gauge would be better, but as things are going, I don't see Brazil being able to compete against China in that area, so at least securing home sales is already a victory for the Brazilian rolling stock industry.
Belem will be break of gauge 1600mm/1435mm.
I want see Brazil being able to compete against China in Brazilian HSR and Northern Brazilian lines.

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Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
GE's factory in Brazil AFAIK



It adds a competitive advantage for local suppliers. I don't know exactly how much it is, maybe 10%, but it is a head start at least.

If it adds no advantage, then why is the rolling stock overwhelmingly bought from local suppliers? I bet that chinese rolling stock is cheaper anytime, but they would need to adapt their projects for 1,6m which they might not care to do.
All 1600mm gauge lines got proposed to convert to 1435mm.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 05:29 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Brazil is not standarizing at 1,6m, it is simply not standarizing at all. They are just using what fits the needs and conects better at each project. For most new projects 1,6m was the best, but there are also new rail projects for 1,0m in Paraná for example.

The main reason for not working on standarizing is: The private operators don't want a standarization because they already have rolling stock for the current gauges. They don't want to buy new rolling stock just for achieving long term benefits. They don't care about benefits in 30-60 years from now. The government and rulling party as well don't care about the long run, so they would not invest in something which will only bring benefits so far away.

But there are also good side effects of not using the international gauge: it is a kind of proteccionism, and it generates industrial jobs in Brazil because rail companies are (to a certain degree) forced to buy rail stock built in Brazil, instead of, for example, bringing in rolling stock from China. If Brazil was expecting to get competitive and export rolling stock, then international gauge would be better, but as things are going, I don't see Brazil being able to compete against China in that area, so at least securing home sales is already a victory for the Brazilian rolling stock industry.
Brazilian HSR will be 1435mm.
Northern Brazilian lines (Amazon Rainforest area) will be 1435mm.
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Old June 18th, 2011, 05:36 AM   #60
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All 1600mm gauge lines got proposed to convert to 1435mm.
Source?
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