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Old December 21st, 2006, 07:11 AM   #201
Damien
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It's actually more like 40 million EUR per km.
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Old December 21st, 2006, 07:30 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5archit View Post
It still blows me away when I read that the cost to build 1 Km. of subway here in Toronto is no longer $100 million, but is now $240 million- according to the TTC (Toronto Transit Commision)?

How it is even $100 million is beyond me, let alone $240 million?? Unless labour costs are so extremely high, property values exceedingly expensive and densities also very high, I still can't seem to understand why it would cost so much?

Madrid built 1 Km. for less than 90 million EUR. including their stations, and that is a much denser city than most NA cities..let alone Toronto (quite dense, but no quite Madrid..)

So what gives..Where do the extreme cost arise to make subway building so damned expensive that all politicians are afraid to touch it with a ten foot pole?

........frustrated and annoyed that Toronto does not have the foresight...

pfive
It also depends how ownership is handled in Canada versus Spain. The Spanish civil code helps a lot, as ownership only extends something like 10 m or 15 m below the surface. So as long as your tunnel is 15.1 m below the level of the street, not only do you not have to compensate the owner for going through "his" property, you can tunnel as you please and are not as limited by the street grid above to determine the route of your transit line.
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Old December 21st, 2006, 07:46 AM   #203
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Wow - that explains a lot!! Thanks.

Under common law (as in Canada), you need to purchase a right-of-way even if the tunnel is far underground.
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Old December 22nd, 2006, 01:26 AM   #204
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In the case of Toronto, the subway also has to go through a stringent Environmental Assessment project...along with this, you have the political facts of life in Canada...the amount of money available for infrastructure projects depends on the whims of the government of the day....and significant delays can be caused through legal action as well.

Delays and a lack of predictability can lead to increased risks and increased costs.

Hehehe for another example (that is only slightly related to tunneling):

Ottawa (Canada's capital city) just cancelled the latest version of their LRT project (costing about 375 million) due to criticism and issues related to the plan...including a lack of commitment on Federal and Provincial funding. Perhaps $300 mn may have to be spent compensating Siemens for the broken contract.

Cheers, m
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Old May 17th, 2007, 06:49 AM   #205
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Other US metro systems

Everytime we talk about US metros, we often think of NY, Chicago, SF or LA. How about other US cities? Some US cities like Miami or Boston have impressive metro systems but are underrated compared to the cities I mentioned earlier.

Here are some impressive metro systems in other US cities.

Metrorail (Washington D.C.)







Baltimore Metro Subway





T (Boston)









Cleveland Metro







MARTA (Atlanta)







Metrorail (Miami)







SEPTA / PATCO (Philadelphia)







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Last edited by Manila-X; May 17th, 2007 at 07:46 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 06:54 AM   #206
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Baltimore's metro system serious needs an big expansion.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 07:38 AM   #207
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good thread Wanch but you left out Philadelphia & the PATH trains between NYC and New Jersey which are heavy rail also. There are 12 metro systems (heavy rail) in the US.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 07:42 AM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdreamz View Post
good thread Wanch but you left out Philadelphia & the PATH trains between NYC and New Jersey which are heavy rail also. There are 12 metro systems (heavy rail) in the US.
I can't believe I left out Philly. But I can still edit the first page

Anyway, these are the only US cities I know with heavy rail systems.

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) San Francisco

These must be the three largest metro systems in the US. Followed by (Not in order)

4) Los Angeles
5) Boston
6) Philadelphia
7) Cleveland
8) Washington D.C.
9) Miami
10) Atlanta
11) Baltimore

What's the 12th?
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Old May 17th, 2007, 08:45 AM   #209
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the PATH system...NYC/NJ...guess you can count NYC twice but PATH connects Manhattan with Jersey City.
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Old May 17th, 2007, 11:36 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANCH View Post
I can't believe I left out Philly. But I can still edit the first page

Anyway, these are the only US cities I know with heavy rail systems.

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) San Francisco

These must be the three largest metro systems in the US. Followed by (Not in order)

4) Los Angeles
5) Boston
6) Philadelphia
7) Cleveland
8) Washington D.C.
9) Miami
10) Atlanta
11) Baltimore

What's the 12th?
Saint Louis has a heavy rail system:

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Old May 17th, 2007, 11:56 AM   #211
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Great post!
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Old May 17th, 2007, 12:27 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Hinnov View Post
Saint Louis has a heavy rail system:

St. Louis has a metro but uses light rail stock



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Old May 17th, 2007, 04:40 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANCH View Post
I can't believe I left out Philly. But I can still edit the first page

Anyway, these are the only US cities I know with heavy rail systems.

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) San Francisco

These must be the three largest metro systems in the US. Followed by (Not in order)

4) Los Angeles
5) Boston
6) Philadelphia
7) Cleveland
8) Washington D.C.
9) Miami
10) Atlanta
11) Baltimore

What's the 12th?
What criteria do you use for:
a) inclusion as a metro system?
b) for the ranking?
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Old May 17th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #214
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List of the 12 US Heavy Rail Systems

1: Atlanta, Georgia (Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) - heavy rail

2: Baltimore, Maryland (Maryland Transit Administration) - heavy and light rail

3: Boston, Massachusetts ("MBTA subway" or Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority or just "the T") - heavy and light rail

4: Chicago, Illinois (The CTA Subway or the L-train; Metra Commuter Rail) - heavy rail

5: Cleveland, Ohio (Cleveland Rapid Transit or "The Rapid") - heavy and light rail

6: Los Angeles, California (Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority) - heavy and light rail

7: Miami, Florida (Miami-Dade Transit) - heavy and light rail

8: New York City (the New York City Subway and Staten Island Railway operated by the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) - heavy rail

9: New York City - Newark, New Jersey (Port Authority Trans-Hudson or PATH) - heavy rail

10: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority or SEPTA and the PATCO Speedline) - heavy and light rail

11: San Francisco Bay Area ("BART" or Bay Area Rapid Transit and "MUNI" or
San Francisco Municipal Railway) - heavy and light rail

12: Washington, D.C. (Washington Metro, operated by the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority) - heavy rail

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpo..._United_States
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Old May 18th, 2007, 06:53 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
What criteria do you use for:
a) inclusion as a metro system?
b) for the ranking?
I was ranking subway networks. NY for example has the largest subway system in the US.

Also, the cities I listed have at least one heavy rail system. Cities like Las Vegas or Houston don't count since their metro network is all light rail.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 03:23 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WANCH View Post
I was ranking subway networks. NY for example has the largest subway system in the US.

Also, the cities I listed have at least one heavy rail system. Cities like Las Vegas or Houston don't count since their metro network is all light rail.
What about San Diego with the Coaster heavy rail, Seattle with with Sounder Rail and Sounder Transit, the Roadrunner in New Mexico and Dallas with Trinity Rail Express. Soon Minneapolis will aslo be included. The Wikipedia artical is out of date.

In terms of size, Cleveland is definitely smaller tham Washington and I suspect Atlanta.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 08:33 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
What about San Diego with the Coaster heavy rail, Seattle with with Sounder Rail and Sounder Transit, the Roadrunner in New Mexico and Dallas with Trinity Rail Express. Soon Minneapolis will aslo be included. The Wikipedia artical is out of date.

In terms of size, Cleveland is definitely smaller tham Washington and I suspect Atlanta.
thats commuter rail. big difference between "heavy rail" and "commuter rail"
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Old May 18th, 2007, 08:52 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkrunaway1 View Post
thats commuter rail. big difference between "heavy rail" and "commuter rail"
Please define
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Old May 18th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #219
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Photos from the best Philadelphia transit forums on the web: http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles.cjb.net/

APTA Heavy rail and commuter rail definitions:

http://www.apta.com/research/stats/rail/definitions.cfm

Commuter rail (also called metropolitan rail, regional rail, or suburban rail)


is an electric or diesel propelled railway for urban passenger train service consisting of local short distance travel operating between a central city and adjacent suburbs. Service must be operated on a regular basis by or under contract with a transit operator for the purpose of transporting passengers within urbanized areas, or between urbanized areas and outlying areas. Such rail service, using either locomotive hauled or self propelled railroad passenger cars, is generally characterized by multi-trip tickets, specific station to station fares, railroad employment practices and usually only one or two stations in the central business district. Intercity rail service is excluded, except for that portion of such service that is operated by or under contract with a public transit agency for predominantly commuter services, which means that for any given trip segment (i.e., distance between any two stations), more than 50% of the average daily ridership travels on the train at least three times a week.

Heavy rail (metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail)


is an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car trains on fixed rails; separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading. If the service were converted to full automation with no onboard personnel, the service would be considered an automated guideway.
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Last edited by Jayayess1190; May 18th, 2007 at 11:27 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 04:41 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Please define


Regional rail or commuter rail usually provide a rail service between a central business district and suburbs or other locations that draw large numbers of people on a daily basis. The trains providing such services may be termed commuter trains. The development of commuter rail services has become popular today, with the increased public awareness of congestion, dependence on fossil fuels, and other environmental issues, as well as the rising costs of owning and operating automobiles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The term heavy rail is often used for regular railways, to distinguish from systems such as trams, light rail and metro.

Heavy rail typically refers to the standard inter-city rail network, which is built to be robust enough for heavy and high-speed trains, including freight trains, and long distance and high speed passenger trains. Heavy rail is almost always built on its own dedicated right-of-way and is separate from road traffic.

This distinguishes it from light rail which is built to lightweight construction, carries lightweight trains or trams and which is usually, but not always, intended for passenger traffic only, usually around cities.

In the United States, the term is used as the general term for metro systems (underground systems and systems that are not running below the ground but are similar to underground systems in other respects); when the term is used in this way, it should be distinguished from commuter rail and inter-city rail services, which cover longer distances. This usage is seldom found outside the United States; in Britain, the term is instead used to differentiate the standard railway network, particularly the urban and suburban services offered by various National Rail companies, from local rail transit systems such as the London Underground and its counterparts.
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