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Old June 5th, 2016, 01:42 PM   #61
Ashis Mitra
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Catenary gree tram with APS technology is not bad, although costly, but those supercapacitor trams are now installing in some cities is a total waste, becuase of low performance.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 06:48 PM   #62
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This can reduce the visual impact of overhead cable.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 07:03 PM   #63
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Which is a non-problem. No one, especially non-transit geeks, ever notices modern trams' cables.

I don't want to sound harsh, but seriously: this is one of those problems which had to be created in order to sell a new solution.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 07:19 PM   #64
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Is it possible to do third rail for trams?
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Old June 5th, 2016, 07:24 PM   #65
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Yes, at an awful price
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Old June 5th, 2016, 07:25 PM   #66
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Is it possible to do third rail for trams?

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Old June 5th, 2016, 07:37 PM   #67
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Catenary gree tram with APS technology is not bad, although costly, but those supercapacitor trams are now installing in some cities is a total waste, becuase of low performance.
Max speed is not nearly as important as average speed for trams.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 08:01 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Which is a non-problem. No one, especially non-transit geeks, ever notices modern trams' cables.
It's just on the contrary.

Especially that now it's more common than in the past to install the railway-like network:



instead of the flat type:



There is much difference between how the city looks with them and without them. Just compare how the train stations on electrified and not electrified railway lines look like. Totally different landscapes.

Not only the overhead network influences the city view, but also the pylons holding it.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 09:23 PM   #69
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Quote:
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It's just on the contrary.

Especially that now it's more common than in the past to install the railway-like network:
But why must one choose between the now more common railway-like configuration and catenary-free trams when the regular setup is still an option? I agree that the railway-like catenary looks bad, especially if it's held by only one row of pylons:

(source)

But regular catenary can be very discrete, especially in areas with perimeter build-up where you can do without pylons. Though it's a question of how strong are the houses – recently my city's circus (built in 1888) had to be closed down because trolleybus catenary was tearing it's walls apart, making the building dangerous... Perhaps there is a way to reinforce old buildings to make them withstand such forces?

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There is much difference between how the city looks with them and without them. Just compare how the train stations on electrified and not electrified railway lines look like. Totally different landscapes.

Not only the overhead network influences the city view, but also the pylons holding it.
I somehow like the catenary. For me it's what makes a place feel urban, rather than suburban or rural

The French seem to be doing quite well at making catenary and pylons discrete and appealing.
A downtown street with no pylons:

(source)

A downtown street with very discrete junction with no pylons:

(source)

A newer city district with very discrete pylons:

(source)

Speaking of pylons, In many cases, like on the photo of that bridge you showed, you will still need pylons for lighting, even if you get rid of catenary. Though lighting poles are much thinner, granted.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 09:36 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Which is a non-problem. No one, especially non-transit geeks, ever notices modern trams' cables.
Everybody who wants to take photos of buildings, especially tourists, is annoyed by the cables. At least those who have a minimum appreciation for photography.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 10:03 PM   #71
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It might be cheaper for the city to offer to remove the wires from tourist photos for free with the help of Photoshop

And people can do this at him with the freeware Gimp. Wire-removal is a sort of thing that gets taught in school

As for Snapchats, I think that some wires are okay
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Old June 5th, 2016, 10:41 PM   #72
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The streetcar in Dallas has a portion that is catenary-free and the streetcar uses battery power for this portion of the route. Skip to 1:43 in the video for the footage of this streetcar.
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Old June 5th, 2016, 11:17 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriedisUnIzlietne View Post
But regular catenary can be very discrete, especially in areas with perimeter build-up where you can do without pylons. Though it's a question of how strong are the houses – recently my city's circus (built in 1888) had to be closed down because trolleybus catenary was tearing it's walls apart, making the building dangerous... Perhaps there is a way to reinforce old buildings to make them withstand such forces?
The problem is that even if the house walls are strong enough, first of all, the house owner must agree to attach the catenary to the house, and he may want some money from the city for that.

In the Eastern Europe it wasn't a problem in the communist times, when noone from the government and the city authorities was really taking care of the private property - but now it is.

On the other hand, the French, as well as Germans, have found some solutions for this problem - even though they were and still are democratic (except for the East Germany), so the private property have mattered there. It seams that they have some measures to force the owners of the building to get a permission to attach the catenary to their buildings... But how they do it, I have no idea.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 01:01 AM   #74
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I had some experience with building of the new Sydney tramway in 1990s where we had to attach crosswires to old buildings - in Australia typically only two bricks thick, not massive thick walls like Europe. Basically you have a put a big bolt through the wall and a very big spreader plate on the inside to stop the wire pulling a hole in the wall. It's very ugly inside so you have to have some sort of panelling to cover it up, not always good in a historic building.

The other problem is a legal one (which will differ in various countries according to different property laws). That is, every time you attach a wire to a property you have to register a legal qualification (easement) on the property title of the land to give you permission to attach the wire. This can add up to a lot of legal work for many wires!

There is no problem forcing permission, the law does that, it's the paperwork that becomes the problem!

And then in the future the building may be demolished and redeveloped.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 09:48 AM   #75
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I can certainly see how they maybe popular in old historic districts where one doesn't want the visual pollution of the overhead wires. They have, however, never been tested in cities that frequently get snow or ice and I'm not sure how well they would hold up.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 08:50 PM   #76
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@ssiguy2
Yeah, that third rail seems quite good for UAE, France, Brasil, but would it work in snow? So I guess that supercapacitors is the only way for the North
(BTW Congrats to Rio on their new catenary-free tram line! http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/n...augurated.html)

@historyworks
I'm surprised that two layers of bricks is still enough
Well, if a building gets demolished, one can put temporary pylons until the site gets redeveloped. Pylons themselves can be moved from place to place when they're not needed, so I doubt it's too expensive.
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Old June 6th, 2016, 09:16 PM   #77
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It's worse when the building is in a bad condition, and it's not likely to be demolished, neither renovated, in a long time. Or its owner just don't agree for attaching the catenary, just because he doesn't like it, without giving any explanation. Then the result is a pylon standing directly next to the wall, or, what's worse, in the middle of a narrow sidewalk.

Like here on the left: https://goo.gl/maps/aKoGNbRG3no

We can see a hook on the wall, by means of which the catenary was attached, but anyway the pylon had to be put here - probably the walls were too weak (even though the building is renovated!), or just the owner of the house didn't want to have the catenary attached to his building.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 01:21 AM   #78
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We need to remember that most new-built tramlines operate on 750V DC, whereas majority of the old ones use 600V system. This means that the catenary wires in the new system may be slightly thinner, thus lighter.

I agree though that suspended catenary is being over-used.

Out of catenary-free operation, I believe that until there are batteries/supercaps allowing to drive with full performance (speed up to 50 kph, brake and repeat 5 times) and full passenger capacity for more than 2 kms, the third rail will still be the only alternative. And building a full catenary-free tramline is today a waste of money imho. Small sections in the centre - why not.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 04:54 AM   #79
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We need to remember that most new-built tramlines operate on 750V DC, whereas majority of the old ones use 600V system. This means that the catenary wires in the new system may be slightly thinner, thus lighter.
I think there difference is rather between countries. Germany uses 750 V, Poland 600 V. Other countries may use also other voltages, there can be even differences between different cities.

There is not a big difference between the 600 V and 750 V voltage. Actually we have a few trams in Łódź which were imported from Germany, designed for the 750 V voltage, and they work in Łódź where the power supply voltage is 600 V - after changing the polarity, which was needed because we have + at the rails and - at the catenary (so if we take the rails - which are grounded - as a reference point, then the voltage at the catenary is -600 V) and the most popular system is with + at the catenary.

So the difference in the catenary radius should also not be big.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 02:32 PM   #80
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The old double decker trams used to have no above wires in central London, the power came from a grove in the middle of the two running rails.

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