Can Ethiopia be divided ethnically?

[Simfan34]

And as you have said, a good deal is because of the ethnic regions system.

[Hersh]

Originally Posted by abesha

My assumption is based on the fact that it is the working language of the country, and Addis is in the middle of the Oromia region, so to me it seems like those Oromos who live around Addis, Nazret, Debre Zeit, etc speak Amharic, plus a lot of people in other regions, such as around Awassa, around Gambella, etc. It adds up.

It could be that there are more Oromo speakers overall, but I'm not convinced.

I already told you that urbanites speak it. I also explained to you that those who live in the urban regions are a very small minority compared to the rest of the country. What's also important to note is that those Oromos who live in urban areas and speak Amharic are not a statistical minus for the number of Oromo speakers. It's an overlap. It would take virtually everyone in every urban area speaking Amharic and NOT being Amharas (since that would be a double count) for the number to equal those in Oromia.

The catch is that outside Amhara region, native Amharic speakers generally live in the urban areas in significant numbers, so they negatively affect the overall number that could be assumed to be a gain.

Your reasoning is based too much on feeling and anecdotes. Look at the statistics. There is no official data on it so you'll have to deduce from what's available.

[Simfan34]

Well perhaps there are more overall speakers of Oromo, but since the gov't doesn't keep numbers we'll never know, and since currently if you want to get by you need to know Amharic, as urbanization and education increases, so will the number of Amharic speakers. So, yes, you MAY be right, but the fact is, those rural speakers of any language really don't factor into the grand scheme right now.

[Hersh]

And aside from the statistical dispute, there is probably a more relevant question that must be asked. What if Oromos, as the most numerous population bloc, simply prefer their own language. Who is to say otherwise? When the issue is as simple as that, numbers don't matter much. They make for a lively philosophical debate but won't convince people to go against their own self interest.

[Simfan34]

Originally Posted by Hersh

And aside from the statistical dispute, there is probably a more relevant question that must be asked. What if Oromos, as the most numerous population bloc, simply prefer their own language. Who is to say otherwise? When the issue is as simple as that, numbers don't matter much. They make for a lively philosophical debate but won't convince people to go against their own self interest.

But do they? If they do, problems will arise, if they're more tractable, then it will be fine.

[Hersh]

Originally Posted by Simfan34

Well perhaps there are more overall speakers of Oromo, but since the gov't doesn't keep numbers we'll never know, and since currently if you want to get by you need to know Amharic, as urbanization and education increases, so will the number of Amharic speakers. So, yes, you MAY be right, but the fact is, those rural speakers of any language really don't factor into the grand scheme right now.

That's what I've said from the beginning. The urbanites, as the policy makers, and the most educated group, are naturally the most influential and most consequential group. And so far as the urbanites are concerned, Amharic has as a consequence of history become the most logical choice.

But for the vast majority that still live the rural life, they are essentially a blank slate. It would seem very much imperialistic from the perspective of the rural dwellers to necessitate a forced adoption of a language from a historically unfriendly neighbor instead of accommodating the one they already speak.

Remember, the "practical" argument flies out the window when the population that speaks it already isn't a significant majority.

[Simfan34]

Originally Posted by Hersh

That's what I've said from the beginning. The urbanites, as the policy makers, and the most educated group, are naturally the most influential and most consequential group. And so far as the urbanites are concerned, Amharic has as a consequence of history become the most logical choice.

But for the vast majority that still live the rural life, they are essentially a blank slate. It would seem very much imperialistic from the perspective of the rural dwellers to necessitate a forced adoption of a language from a historically unfriendly neighbor instead of accommodating the one they already speak.

Remember, the "practical" argument flies out the window when the population that speaks it already isn't a significant majority.

Well then by and large I agree with you. Although I must say Amharic's written tradition makes it an appealing option to me. But if the Ethiopians feel that Afan Oromo is better, than so be it.

However I do not find bilingualism a viable option.

[Hersh]

Originally Posted by Simfan34

But do they? If they do, problems will arise, if they're more tractable, then it will be fine.

The perfect answer to that would be nuanced, but the simple answer is 'yes, they do.' More so today than anytime in the past, as they've been empowered by the current system. I find that this ethnocentric sense of identity troublesome myself, but if it leads to pluralistic sense of identity, it may be a good thing.

I don't understand why a compromise is untenable for some of you. Why not use English as a working language and have Amharic and Oromo classes be mandatory in most regions? The ideal pluralistic, multi-ethnic, country is not one that speaks just one language or that speaks it along ethnic lines. If you are truly against ethnic division, then blur the line by accepting the language and culture of others just as you'd like others to accept yours. To essentially say that by the virtue of having been forced down people's throats that it must remain that way now is simply not a workable policy.

[Hersh]

Originally Posted by Simfan34

Well then by and large I agree with you. Although I must say Amharic's written tradition makes it an appealing option to me. But if the Ethiopians feel that Afan Oromo is better, than so be it.

However I do not find bilingualism a viable option.

It's not an ideal option but might be a necessary option. If people are to speak just one language, there is no point in switching over to Oromo.

[Simfan34]

Originally Posted by Hersh

It's not an ideal option but might be a necessary option. If people are to speak just one language, there is no point in switching over to Oromo.

Precisely what I think. However we must protect, preserve, and likely eventually regulate the Oromo language so that it is not lost.


We are in agreement!

[Hersh]

Originally Posted by Simfan34

Precisely what I think. However we must protect, preserve, and likely eventually regulate the Oromo language so that it is not lost.


We are in agreement!

Yes, we are in agreement in principle.

But I find the idea of aspiring to have a multi-cultural pluralistic nation while not having room for more than one language to be a disingenuous paradox.

I would describe having just one language as ideal too, but I'd rather be fair and thoughtful than ideal. They way you solve problems is not by acting unilaterally. Ultimately, you'll have to cede ground because the situation we have is not ideal. That's the fundamental basis for my proposition.

[lamrof]

Originally Posted by teklu

I don't think Ethiopian ethnicity is based on race but is based on language, oromos are oromo speaking people and amharas are amharic speaking people, culturally and religiously u will see a lot of diversity within one ethnic group, therefore the answer is simply yes Ethiopia can be divided ethnically but the ethnicity in Ethiopia is language based and is not deep rooted.

language based ethnicity and the current killil boundary drafted by the TPLF is an audacious infringement against individual rights. The whole sale idea of banding people under Ethnicity is the EPRDF's grandest blunder next to letting go the only sea outlet of the country with flying colors.

The Shoa Oromos for example those north of Addisaba never heard of the word "Irrecha" The Shoan Amharic speakers are as different as can be from those say from Gonder. As a rule when you move towards the center of the country cultural differences blur when you move out they become distinct. There is an immense difference culturally between the Oromos in Hararge and those in Welega and those N. Shoa. At the same time the shoan Amharic speakers are culturally identical to those Oromos around them in N. Shoa.

Dividing people based on spoken language is as silly as dividing people based on culinary habits, specially in Ethiopia. There were other ways to cultivating and enriching Ethnics in Ethiopia. What was done however is trumping individual rights to form petty, meaningless artificial ethnic states. Ethnic cultures could be made to blossom without having to dismantle the identities of individuals. What we need is things to bring us together not drive us apart. The secessionist tendencies of the TPLF is rooted in all of this. If you are building a nation you don't do things that could potentially poison it.

I am part Oromo and Amara, why should I be forced to choose?

The current Killil idea is a bad idea. It rips apart self and National identification. It serves no purpose other than make people grow apart rather than grow closer. Only those with narrow pin-hole vision of things dance to this tune of stupidity.

[Simfan34]

Originally Posted by lamrof

language based ethnicity and the current killil boundary drafted by the TPLF is an audacious infringement against individual rights. The whole sale idea of banding people under Ethnicity is the EPRDF's grandest blunder next to letting go the only sea outlet of the country with flying colors.

The Shoa Oromos for example those north of Addisaba never heard of the word "Irrecha" The Shoan Amharic speakers are as different as can be from those say from Gonder. As a rule when you move towards the center of the country cultural differences blur when you move out they become distinct. There is an immense difference culturally between the Oromos in Hararge and those in Welega and those N. Shoa. At the same time the shoan Amharic speakers are culturally identical to those Oromos around them in N. Shoa.

Dividing people based on spoken language is as silly as dividing people based on culinary habits, specially in Ethiopia. I am not against the progress of Ethnic identity, cultivating and enriching its culture. What I am against is trumping individual rights to form petty, meaningless artificial ethnic states. Ethnic cultures could be made to blossom without having to dismantle the identities of individuals. What we need is things to bring us together not drive us apart.

I am part Oromo and Amara, why should I be forced to choose?

The current Killil idea is a bad idea. It rips apart self and National identification. It serves no purpose other than make people grow apart rather than grow closer. Only those with narrow pin-hole vision of things jump to this tune of stupidity.

Agree totally.

[Yoniii]

Originally Posted by lamrof

language based ethnicity and the current killil boundary drafted by the TPLF is an audacious infringement against individual rights. The whole sale idea of banding people under Ethnicity is the EPRDF's grandest blunder next to letting go the only sea outlet of the country with flying colors.

The Shoa Oromos for example those north of Addisaba never heard of the word "Irrecha" The Shoan Amharic speakers are as different as can be from those say from Gonder. As a rule when you move towards the center of the country cultural differences blur when you move out they become distinct. There is an immense difference culturally between the Oromos in Hararge and those in Welega and those N. Shoa. At the same time the shoan Amharic speakers are culturally identical to those Oromos around them in N. Shoa.

Dividing people based on spoken language is as silly as dividing people based on culinary habits, specially in Ethiopia. There were other ways to cultivating and enriching Ethnics in Ethiopia. What was done however is trumping individual rights to form petty, meaningless artificial ethnic states. Ethnic cultures could be made to blossom without having to dismantle the identities of individuals. What we need is things to bring us together not drive us apart. The secessionist tendencies of the TPLF is rooted in all of this. If you are building a nation you don't do things that could potentially poison it.

I am part Oromo and Amara, why should I be forced to choose?

The current Killil idea is a bad idea. It rips apart self and National identification. It serves no purpose other than make people grow apart rather than grow closer. Only those with narrow pin-hole vision of things jump to this tune of stupidity.

I agree, this should be common sense for anyone that wants to live in a peaceful Ethiopia. TPLF knows that a united Ethiopia would be hell for them.

[maasai1]

Originally Posted by Simfan34

Why do you think Kenya's better off than Ethiopia?

sorry brother, I didn't say or mean that 'kenya is better..', I was just wondering why some of your people are so bitter about language.

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Most people that don’t like Ethnic Federalism are the same ones that want to continue with the culture hegemony of their ancestors. This is actually one thing I support.

[Yoniii]

Originally Posted by The Nomadic Warrior

Most people that don’t like Ethnic Federalism are the same ones that want to continue with the culture hegemony of their ancestors. This is actually one thing I support.

Of course you support it. The ones that doesn't support it wants a peaceful united Ethiopia. You want Ethiopia to be divided into several pieces. Different agendas, different policies.

There other ways to embrace our different cultures, than splitting up the country along ethnic lines.

[Simfan34]

Originally Posted by maasai1

sorry brother, I didn't say or mean that 'kenya is better..', I was just wondering why some of your people are so bitter about language.

That was worded extremely badly, I did mean to imply Kenya was better, and was stating that Kenyans' attitude towards language was a reasom why.

[lamrof]

Originally Posted by The Nomadic Warrior

Most people that don’t like Ethnic Federalism are the same ones that want to continue with the culture hegemony of their ancestors.

How did you measure that. I grew up in a Family of mixed Ethnicity. The Amharic speaking but Ethnically Oromo and Amara Elites of Shoa oppressed everybody including my family.

I hate language based Ethnic Federalism, how could that mean I want that oppression to continue?

Is it fair for me to assume those who support Ethnic federalism are those who want to see Ethiopia disintegrate? As a Somali do you want to see Ethiopia break apart?

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Yoniii

Of course you support it. The ones that doesn't support it wants a peaceful united Ethiopia. You want Ethiopia to be divided into several pieces. Different agendas, different policies.

There other ways to embrace our different cultures, than splitting up the country along ethnic lines.

Originally Posted by lamrof

How did you measure that. I grew up in a Family of mixed Ethnicity. The Amharic speaking but Ethnically Oromo and Amara Elites of Shoa oppressed everybody including my family.

I hate language based Ethnic Federalism, how could that mean I want that oppression to continue?

Is it fair for me to assume those who support Ethnic federalism are those who want to see Ethiopia disintegrate? As a Somali do you want to see Ethiopia break apart?

Again, both of you are using the same argument.

I am not the one who implemented this rule, I just support it.

So, since the TPLF created this idea, we can suppose that they(TPLF) want a divided Ethiopia which will disintegrate along ethnic lines?

But then again, he did create Article 39 as well

Addressing Lamrof, no I don’t want to see Ethiopia disintegrate. I don’t see where you get this idea from.

Ethnic federalism is a great well thought out idea. I think most regions can enjoy more autonomy (Except Somali for political reasons) and more freedom speaking their native tongue and learning their culture heritage in schools, without them having an external culture like for example the Amhara one being forced upon them like they were before.


Ethiopia has always been a heavily centralized country from its interception, and always had this idea of being Ethiopia means being or acting like a Christian Amhara. This idea stayed in the minds of Ethiopians for a long time and caused social and political problems in the long run. Most Ethiopians didn’t allow the culture hegemony to continue forever hence the expulsion of the Kingdom.

Basically, Meles is reversing this culture dominance and opening a new age of multiculturalism in Ethiopia.

Also it is definitely a political tool as well. One cannot deny that, he still uses Amhara-Oromo divide to its full potential. Oromos want to develop their culture further and regain lost time until brutal Amhara rule. Increase awareness in Oromo nationalism will help Meles prevent any chance of Amhara come back in the political arena. While the Amhara still want to regain their right place in the political spectrum.

Yonii and Lamrof both stated that they were Amhara and against this. Only added more validity to my point.

However, Meles/TPLF are trying to follow the Chinese policy of integration through economic development

ethnicity will become less an issue as the economy grows and Ethiopia's process of assimilation does its job

This is social engineering at its finest. I don't think he has taken into account xenophobia and regilious differences. Examples, since Chinese growth and Han Chinese have moved into territory of other ethnic minorities. E But only to be meet with opposition by Tibetan and Uyghur people, thus causing more political and social problems and in many cases violence.