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Old May 20th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #2161
Nino_B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrykus View Post
stiffer how? All I heard is that concrete structure is always less swaying than steel, and as we know both twins and esb are/were steel structures.
The stiffness (or resistance to flexure) of a building or a beam in general is related to its cross sectional area and shape [area moment of inertia] and the mechanical elastic strength of its building materials. The building is like a cantilevered beam supported at the bottom and free at the top. The higher the building (longer the beam) the more displacement/sway at the top (end).

The Empire State Building not only has a high area moment of inertia geometric cross section but it also had its steel frame encased in concrete as Kanto mentioned. It is way overbuilt by modern engineering standards but hence it has very little flex to it and hardly any sway at the top.

This proposed building design has a very slender cross section and is very tall, so in order to increase its flexural stiffness and prevent excessive sway at the top they will either have to put alot of reinforcing steel or concrete in the frame OR add a tuned mass damper at the top.

This will be one of the most interesting projects in many years if it does go through.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #2162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino_B View Post
The stiffness (or resistance to flexure) of a building or a beam in general is related to its cross sectional area and shape [area moment of inertia] and the mechanical elastic strength of its building materials. The building is like a cantilevered beam supported at the bottom and free at the top. The higher the building (longer the beam) the more displacement/sway at the top (end).

The Empire State Building not only has a high area moment of inertia geometric cross section but it also had its steel frame encased in concrete as Kanto mentioned. It is way overbuilt by modern engineering standards but hence it has very little flex to it and hardly any sway at the top.

This proposed building design has a very slender cross section and is very tall, so in order to increase its flexural stiffness and prevent excessive sway at the top they will either have to put alot of reinforcing steel or concrete in the frame OR add a tuned mass damper at the top.

This will be one of the most interesting projects in many years if it does go through.
I responded to you because you suggested that 432 will be more swaying than twins and esb while you actually don't know that. It will be concrete building alright. Damper on the top? I'm not sure if there is space for this, but one thing you can be sure of - people who'll pay tens of millions for the top apartment won't accept any noticeable swaying so I have no doubt engineers have taken this into account.
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Last edited by patrykus; May 20th, 2012 at 08:15 PM.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #2163
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Stay on topic guys!

There's a forum for modelling and developing imaginative ideas. It called Creative Corner. Take the speculative discussions there! This forum is for discussing known values and developments!
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Old May 21st, 2012, 12:38 PM   #2164
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this building's taller than one world trade center.???
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Old May 21st, 2012, 01:40 PM   #2165
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this building's taller than one world trade center.???
At least if you just count the roof height. With spire 1WTC will be alot taller.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 02:51 PM   #2166
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Concrete trucks are on site, it seems they´re pooring something. The walls which will be eginst the other buildings walls are progressing as well. And first column foundations are visible for the east side of the tower. They also errected four rebar cages for the retail portion on 57th street. The site is BUSY.

http://www.432park.com/
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Old May 21st, 2012, 04:33 PM   #2167
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i heard something absurd (in my opinion) a few posts above so I have to comment. the question in matter is how can someone LOVE the Twins and yet HATE this tower. The main argument of the person posting this question is that since both are simply "boxes", why like the Twins and yet hate this one. And I am here to answer that.

There are various reasons why the Twins look absolutely staggering and why this tower doesnt (at least to me, the person in question)

Lets start by the fact that the Twins... are ... TWINS, ie 2 buildings and not one. If only one tower was built back then, I assure you, most people would hate it, or find it boring. Just picture it yourself... would one tower be as impressive as two? The downtown skyline would be totally different. The actual impact the Twins made was because one tower complimented the other.

Then there was the size of the Twins. The Twins were properly proportioned "boxes" not thin like 432 park. The bulk alone of the Twins and the impact they had in the skyline, was amazing.

You ask how can people like the Twins and hate this one, I honestly ask you how can you compare the Twins sheer bullk and size with 432 park.

Now to get back more on topic, if there is one thing that could honestly make me like this tower is what a friend above said, that there will be another tower near it at 425. Is that true? If so, then yes, even if it is as thin as 432, another tower next to it will make this AMAZING. Please confirm if this is actually a possibility.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 04:45 PM   #2168
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How long this move to U/C ?
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Old May 21st, 2012, 05:49 PM   #2169
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Quote:
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Lets start by the fact that the Twins... are ... TWINS, ie 2 buildings and not one. If only one tower was built back then, I assure you, most people would hate it, or find it boring. Just picture it yourself... would one tower be as impressive as two? The downtown skyline would be totally different. The actual impact the Twins made was because one tower complimented the other.
Exactly. What made the twins so iconic, so singular, what made them a trademark, was precisaly that they were... twins!. (that and their size, of course)
And also the way they were arranged, aligned (not exactly, but kind of) at their diagonal rather that by their faces. So they change depending on the angle of view, making them very dynamic although they were so simple forms.
As for this building, we'll have to see, but I don't think it will become as conic as the twins.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 05:56 PM   #2170
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Old May 21st, 2012, 05:57 PM   #2171
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Exactly. What made the twins so iconic, so singular, what made them a trademark, was precisaly that they were... twins!. (that and their size, of course)
And also the way they were arranged, aligned (not exactly, but kind of) at their diagonal rather that by their faces. So they change depending on the angle of view, making them very dynamic although they were so simple forms.
As for this building, we'll have to see, but I don't think it will become as conic as the twins.
This building is not conic, and neither were the twins. Both were/will be rectangular prisms.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 06:02 PM   #2172
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He just played with the term "conic" (cone-shaped) which was a typo there, obviously.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 06:05 PM   #2173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCs77 View Post
Exactly. What made the twins so iconic, so singular, what made them a trademark, was precisaly that they were... twins!. (that and their size, of course)
And also the way they were arranged, aligned (not exactly, but kind of) at their diagonal rather that by their faces. So they change depending on the angle of view, making them very dynamic although they were so simple forms.
As for this building, we'll have to see, but I don't think it will become as conic as the twins.
Perfect explanation of twins phenomenon. Arrangement, size, simplicity and... being twins (oh and I would add also perfect location)

As for the 432. It is nice (maybe even great) building in a way, but of course it ,as 1wtc, has no slightest chances of bitting twins.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 06:17 PM   #2174
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People seem to forget that the Twins were hated first, even till their very last breath.
So how about we all give this building a chance and judge later? It's going up, noone can stop it now.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 06:52 PM   #2175
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This tower is so unique because of it's slimness it's hard to tell how it will work out as a real building compared to the renders. It's hard to predict how this design will be noticed in the Skyline, how it will size up to the other buildings that have more body.

And we also have to realize that we now life in a world where not every 400m+ tower will necessarily be iconic.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:10 PM   #2176
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hey hey hey

its this true, this stick building its on construction already, can somebody tell us if there are on the world another thin and tall building like this ?? i mean if that is the final design ?
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:20 PM   #2177
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Quote:
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People seem to forget that the Twins were hated first, even till their very last breath.
So how about we all give this building a chance and judge later? It's going up, noone can stop it now.
Twins were so big and so centered in lower Manhattan that they actually made a skyline. 432 even if best tower ever because of its size and random location is simply not in the position to do so. It will be always one of the many in midtown.

Oh and I never hated twins even when I first saw them as kid in the movies
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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:19 PM   #2178
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Twins were so big and so centered in lower Manhattan that they actually made a skyline. 432 even if best tower ever because of its size and random location is simply not in the position to do so. It will be always one of the many in midtown.

Oh and I never hated twins even when I first saw them as kid in the movies
On the contrary, 432 will be far and away the tallest structure in the immediate vicinity and for several blocks in every direction. As such it will make a major impact.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:40 PM   #2179
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This vs. Torre Verre, and a rundown on ULURP for those unfamiliar (the process whereby zoning exceptions are granted).

http://newyorkyimby.blogspot.com/201...ode-major.html

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Structures built as-of-right, like 432 Park Avenue, require no approvals because they stick to the zoning code in the neighborhood where they are being built. No land-use review is necessary, as long as structures conform to the code and the amount of space they are allowed to contain. Thus, 432 Park will be rising to approximately 1,400 feet with no public input.

If modifications to the zoning code are necessary--as in the case of Torre Verre--proposals must go through ULURP, the city's long, arduous, and convoluted process for approving exceptions to the zoning code. While NIMBYs have no say regarding structures built as-of-right, those that go through ULURP are beholdent to neighborhood criticism and, ultimately, the whims of the City Planning Commission. Thus, the Torre Verre had its height chopped; Amanda Burden found the design unsatisfactory, and decreed that the building did not deserve to rise as tall as the Empire State.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:05 PM   #2180
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On the contrary, 432 will be far and away the tallest structure in the immediate vicinity and for several blocks in every direction. As such it will make a major impact.
I meant wide, and obviously two of them. 432 is just a thin stick and probably one of many in the near future.
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