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Old June 12th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #2461
jconyc
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Originally Posted by Ajaypp View Post
IMHO, new buildings in a open real estate market (as opposed to a hubris fueled one) reflect demand from consumers. Developers have a right to build and consumers have a right to own or lease real estate as much as pedestrians have a right to a pleasant experience and old building lovers have theirs to enjoy a heritage rich view. As a developer, I cannot understand the holier-than-thou opinions that some people have about older buildings. If there is do demand in the market to sustain them beyond their obvious economic life, they will be replaced by newer ones. If everyone had demanded that the low rises of historic Manhattan and Chicago were to be preserved at all costs, we would never have had a skyscraper skyline in the first place.

If the market supports this project and the developer can build it, let it be. Cities are living organisms in many senses, they have to evolve or risk becoming extinct. There may be areas where pure economics dictates that older buildings can be preserved, but it's pure folly to expect that preservation overrides everything else, be it in the case of this project or for others such as 15 Penn Plaza.

Well said.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #2462
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Sorry to disappoint you but I very much care about the beauty of things and this is my neighborhood we are talking about.
I am in the business of beauty.
There seems to be a lot of cynics on this site.

My point about being here in New York is that unless you have lived with the buildings and street scape you are talking about you cannot discuss them with any true authority. I would not presume to try and tell a Parisian or a Londoner whether a building was appropriate to their neighborhood without going there myself and learning the environment. You are certainly entitled to your opinion...but New york is a very large and complex place and to say all developers are driven by solely greed is just ignorant and cynical. I know some of these developers personally and even though they are tough businessmen (you have to be to accomplish anything in New York) they really do care passionately about this city and it's architecture.
Very well said.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #2463
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That's fine. Still, no developer putting fine buildings like the Drake and those townhouses down can be much more than a greedy bastard. While there are still empty lots and rottening postwar buildings of undescribable ugliness...
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #2464
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Webcam.

Just to maybe bring this thread more on topic It seems I was right. Maybe they have started some structural part of the building already but until they finish the walls and remove the ramp actual construction can't really precede hence we have to wait some more for the actual action
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #2465
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Aren't all developers greedy bastards that want to make money.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #2466
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Well, I once decided to buy historical vacational estates from people to renovate them and use it for private purposes and renting it seasonally mainly. Thus I would call myself a developer but I'm hardly greedy doing this. I saved old buildings from rottening and added value to the neighbourhood.

I don't see why developers in Manhattan wouldn't be able to do this in such cases. They can build their supertalls elsewhere.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #2467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
That's fine. Still, no developer putting fine buildings like the Drake and those townhouses down can be much more than a greedy bastard. While there are still empty lots and rottening postwar buildings of undescribable ugliness...
Did you actually ever visit these buildings, walk by them for year after year, shop in them, have lunch or a drink in them?...I did

They simply were not as fine as you think they were.
It sounds to me as though you have a grudge against Harry Macklowe

It is not as easy as you think to just buy any building you want and build whatever you want...not in this city. You should come here in try it. I'm not sure what you mean by elsewhere? This is a perfect site for this building and a welcome change.

Preservation in New York is alive and well here and if these buildings were truly important examples of their kind they would indeed have been preserved...but they were not and were not worth it.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #2468
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If the city has preserved every old structure, we wouldnīt have an ESB on 34/5th but still the old Waldorf Astoria. No Rockefeller Centre, still mansions and rowhouses. And the list goes and on and on.

The area between 34th street and 20th street is FULL of blocks filled with very old buildings, Downtown has a big amount of OLD buildings, heck even midtown still has, not to mention the UWS and UES, Harlem and Columbia Uni area.

And i am pretty sure this tower will be a catalyst to redevelop Park Avenue, replace some boxes with new towers like 425 Park Avenue, and add interesting retail for everyone.

I am not a big fan of this tower, but itīll be more integrated into the skyline in coming years.

During my visit i walked by this area often, and was amazed by the density around the Sony Building, IBM building area and canīt vision the impact this tower will have on visitors.

Or step out of the Waldorf Astoria after a few drinks at Sir Harryīs and see this tower lit in itīs full glory.

Probs for NYC.....
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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #2469
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Preservation in New York is alive and well here and if these buildings were truly important examples of their kind they would indeed have been preserved...but they were not and were not worth it.
Sure, in times the Singer Building, City Invest, the Penn Station and many others were torn down, people probably said the same. History repeating.

One day you'll have only the most remarkable historical buildings of Manhattan surviving.

And then... All the vibe, the charm and aura of former Manhattan is gone. Congrats.

I'm out.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #2470
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Rainy day in NY, but the work goes on.

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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:47 PM   #2471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Sure, in times the Singer Building, City Invest, the Penn Station and many others were torn down, people probably said the same. History repeating.

One day you'll have only the most remarkable historical buildings of Manhattan surviving.

And then... All the vibe, the charm and aura of former Manhattan is gone. Congrats.

I'm out.
You speak as if old buildings would be the only beautiful buildings and the only buildings worthy of having a place in Manhattan but NYC is not an art deco museum. NYC needs to have modern buildings too and 432 Park is a new, modern icon of the city. A small, old hotel is just not worth it to stop such a major development like 432 Park
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Old June 12th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #2472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Sure, in times the Singer Building, City Invest, the Penn Station and many others were torn down, people probably said the same. History repeating.

One day you'll have only the most remarkable historical buildings of Manhattan surviving.

And then... All the vibe, the charm and aura of former Manhattan is gone. Congrats.

I'm out.
I hope your are wrong about that. I wholeheartedly believe that the loss of Penn Station was a tragedy and as you must know the result was the creation of the National Trust for Historic Preservation. We have learned a few things. There are hundreds of neighborhoods in New York were the charm is not preserved but is living and breathing and vibrant.

I am not sure why my comment about pig and sheep farms was deleted? I was agreeing with you germantower.
It was not a flippant remark but is a historical fact this location was charming rural farmland three hundred years ago...

Last edited by jconyc; June 12th, 2012 at 09:09 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #2473
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Notice they have poured another tower footing near the base of the ramp
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Old June 12th, 2012, 11:40 PM   #2474
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I expect a speed of 1,5 floors/week.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #2475
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If the city has preserved every old structure, we wouldnīt have an ESB on 34/5th but still the old Waldorf Astoria. No Rockefeller Centre, still mansions and rowhouses. And the list goes and on and on.
True, but nobody is arguing to preserve every old structure. Some of us wish that the ugly stuff would be replaced first, rather than nice stuff being replaced because the developers like the site.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #2476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Sure, in times the Singer Building, City Invest, the Penn Station and many others were torn down, people probably said the same. History repeating.

One day you'll have only the most remarkable historical buildings of Manhattan surviving.

And then... All the vibe, the charm and aura of former Manhattan is gone. Congrats.

I'm out.
Midtown is a business. Romanticizing the situation is pointless really. They. the powers that be, don't care about 'charm' in midtown and it is a rather futile practice to hope that they are going to landmark or leave untouched every pre-war building that looks anyway 'pretty'. It is a cramped space that requires continual renewal and taller towers to deal with upgrading office, retail and attracting more wealth. You can't just target the 'ugly' mid-century buildings first, it does not work like that in the real world of leases and demolition costs. If you only like midtown for its historic charm, I don't think you know NY very well. Midtown is not what anyone would consider charming. It is a power hub full of eclectic styles, and its scale and activity would negate anything that remotely resembles charm in the opinion of many people.

In one way it would be nice if you could just save the nice old buildings and target the ugly ones for development, but that is a pipe dream in a society like the USA. Those ugly towers are probably very cost effective for their owners/tenants and would cost a fortune to demolish in comparison to the smaller inadequate older buildings that are usually targeted first.

Last edited by aquablue; June 13th, 2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:25 PM   #2477
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I think we can all agree to this. Unfortunately it is an unperfect world, many owners simply do not want sell, a site may not be a good location, might have the wrong geology for a super-tall, or not have the air rights. I am actually astounded that this is happening and excited for the precedent it sets for mid-town. Even if you do not like this building...if you love supertalls this building is breaking through the glass ceiling of midtown. I think in few years it will be just another supertall but is setting the tone for greater buildings in the future. We should wish for it's success on those grounds alone.

On another note you can see from the web cam...on the left wall...that they are working on a third layer...First was the retaining wall...then came the white barrier membrane ...over that they are now casting what will become the perimeter bearing wall for the plaza. I wonder how much longer till we see them start removing the ramp. They need to keep moving on the tower footings. I would think they would set in a tower crane first.

Last edited by jconyc; June 13th, 2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #2478
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Midtown is a business. Romanticizing the situation is pointless really. They. the powers that be, don't care about 'charm' in midtown and it is a rather futile practice to hope that they are going to landmark or leave untouched every pre-war building that looks anyway 'pretty'. It is a cramped space that requires continual renewal and taller towers to deal with upgrading office, retail and attracting more wealth. You can't just target the 'ugly' mid-century buildings first, it does not work like that in the real world of leases and demolition costs. If you only like midtown for its historic charm, I don't think you know NY very well. Midtown is not what anyone would consider charming. It is a power hub full of eclectic styles, and its scale and activity would negate anything that remotely resembles charm in the opinion of many people...
Very, very well said.

What people are not understanding is that Midtown is one neighborhood in Manhattan. They act as though the only historic buildings in the city are in Midtown, when there a many, many, many neighborhoods with far more architecturally significant buildings.

But all this talk is cluttering, and taking this thread off topic. erbse, if I make a thread for this in the Architecture, or NY forum, can we cut this stuff? This discussion is simply not relevant anymore. If the Drake were being demolished, or that process was about to start, then fine but this discussion should be about the tower. Nothing else.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #2479
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432 Park Avenue

Location: New York City, USA

Height: 426m

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1195971

Everytime I chide the "design" of this structure I'm told that it isn't final, as if there're so many more pending changes that these images merely represent the massing of the tower. So what's the case? Is this the final design? I'll have my barf-bag handy while awaiting the answer.
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Old June 13th, 2012, 07:59 PM   #2480
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The blueprints and floor plans matched that picture pretty well, in fact almost perfectly, so... I think it is final.
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