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Old October 15th, 2012, 04:26 PM   #101
Stahlsturm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
What about boyracers who think they can drive fast? They are usually the first who end up in a ditch, or worse: put entire family's with children in hospitals and cemeteries.
They already did that with Motorcycles in Germany. the first 2 years you are only allowed to drive a bike up to a certain size (read Speed, engine output) so you are forced to learn how to handle such a thing in everyday traffic without the ability of going 250 kmh. I think a similar provision with cars would be more useful than a general limit.

Not that any limit or regulation will keep the real idiots off the road because they get Daddy's 500 PS BMW and drive stoned and drunk and God knows what else and then kill themselves, their 4 friends in the car they tried to impress and the family that happened to be oncoming traffic... Sad but true.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 04:38 PM   #102
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A real idiot would't give a damn for any posted speed limit.

Speed limit instead should be the safest maximum speed for that stretch of road. If this were true, normal drivers would learn to match that speed limit, knowing it's posted for a good reason.

Instead, politically chosen speed limits way below the safe limit invite people to disregard them, and to disregard also those posted for a safety reason.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 04:45 PM   #103
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Instead, politically chosen speed limits way below the safe limit invite people to disregard them, and to disregard also those posted for a safety reason.
I totally agree with this. If you come from Romania to Germany, you will see how almost all signs do make sense, and help you drive on that road stretch. This is at least my impression.

In Romania, many signs don't exist where they should, then you have a lot of stupid signs, overtaking ban where there is huge visibility, stupid speed limits, many of these set in places only because police like to collect money there.
So then most people begin to ignore the sings, and where they do know the road well it's ok, but this driving style will make you ignore them also where you don't know it well, and then tragedies happen.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #104
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I totally agree with this. If you come from Romania to Germany, you will see how almost all signs do make sense, and help you drive on that road stretch. This is at least my impression.

In Romania, many signs don't exist where they should, then you have a lot of stupid signs, overtaking ban where there is huge visibility, stupid speed limits, many of these set in places only because police like to collect money there.
There's a fast growing number of these on regular country roads in Germany because aside from the Autobahn not only Police but also the local communities can (and will) get involved in speed controls and those (unlike actual Police measures) are not focussed on traffic safety but on revenue maximizing.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
There's a fast growing number of these on regular country roads in Germany because aside from the Autobahn not only Police but also the local communities can (and will) get involved in speed controls and those (unlike actual Police measures) are not focussed on traffic safety but on revenue maximizing.
That's sad and stupid.
I didn't get a ticket yet. On national roads tend to drive 120kmh where it's safe, and some of these roads are really well built. In urban places I don't like speeding, I mostly get overtaken in Ingolstadt, while driving 55-60.
A friend told me that he saw many fixed radar cameras in Baden-Württemberg on the road from Nördlingen to Aalen. Maybe Bavaria is just an exception.

Anyway, stupid political morons make more chaos and harm the people they should represent than the people themselves.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 07:03 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
You'll be surprised how many accidents happen at night due to empty roads and lane straddling vehicles.
Most of those don't happen due to speeding but due to inattention. If you check the crazy drivers thread, you will find most accidents happen due to improper (or no) application of general traffic rules as opposed to speeding, often due to fatigue.

In my opinion it's more dangerous to drive for four hours straight under the speed limit, than to stop frequently and occasionally go a bit faster.

In fact, last time I checked only 5% of deadly accidents in the Netherlands were due to speeding. There are way more serious problems, like alcohol, inattention etc. In fact, many accidents happen due to a vehicle getting on the wrong side of the road. The solution by Dutch authorities is to ban overtaking in many of those roads. Overtaking wasn't the problem though, it was inattention and sleepiness that was the cause for the swerving.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 07:46 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
What about boyracers who think they can drive fast? They are usually the first who end up in a ditch, or worse: put entire family's with children in hospitals and cemeteries.
These people are always going to drive recklessly (recklessly fast I mean) regardless of speed limits.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
So outlaw slow drivers then ?
Should we outlaw all trucks from the motorways, then? They'll do 80 whatever the limit for cars is.
And even if the problem is "cars going too slow", posting a minimum speed limit does not provide any guarantee that this will not happen. The too-slow driver might get fined, but once you get involved in a crash you're not happy about it even if you're 100% right...
Anyway, most of the driving rules in a traffic flow are based on the responsibility of who's coming from behind. May it be a car going 90, a truck going 75 or a crate standing in the middle of the lane, the responsibility of the driver is to always be in proper conditions to stop safely.

This is to say that "removing obstacles" is a condition which helps going faster but we cannot rely on it, because it is not a constantly guaranteeable fail-safe condition (in other words, that's shit that will always happen).

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Stop trying to limit everyone else because of your personal shortcomings. This is like a one-eyed person demanding mandatory eyepatches for everyone.
I don't know why this kind of discussions always gets personal. Why the fact that I don't like the idea of cars allowed to go faster than 130 means that I have a "shortcoming" in driving skills? I'm way better in "fast driving" than most drivers... and THAT is why I don't like the idea of allowing it as an everyday experience, because I know what it takes to do it seriously and safely.

The whole speed limit issue is always supported by the point "let others have more freedom, even if you don't like to go over a certain speed". This is based on an incomplete vision in which the wider freedom of the speeder does not limit the freedom of the other users.
Well, it does. Having lots of faster vehicles coming from behind requires a lot more concentration on the mirrors, and no one likes to do it for the sake of others going over a certain limit.

It's not only a 10% of users who want to be allowed to go faster, there's also the other 90% who prefer personal relaxation over (a few) others' travel time.
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Old October 15th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #109
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very nice explanation....
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Old October 15th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #110
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Yes. Some people may not want to endanger others.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 01:57 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filipdr View Post
Actually, it's not hard to drive fast on a motorway, but you have to be extremely focused on the drivers around you and that takes tons of concentration, especially during some longer trips. This goes for Germany of course:

[youtube]P8PQUTiBNyw[youtube]
Stereotypical car not seeing the faster driver ( the Smart).
And as the guy said in the video, at night it's really no problem.

Believe me, I tried in Holland, at nighttime there's no problem whatsoever doing 170+ all the time, during day, you find yourself doing 160 max before having to brake again as you know a car is going to pull out in front of you. Makes little sense to drive more than 20 km/h faster than the rest.

And I definitely feel what they mean, once you get of the motorway after doing 200+ for 10+ mins then 50 feels SO slow you would nearly get out of the car already at that speed!
Even getting off the highway from 130-140 km/h then driving 70 or 50 on wide 2x2 lane city roads like this feels extremely slow.


As for 90% not wanting to go faster, I suggest you drive more, the left lane here in Holland on 2x2 motorways is usually filled with trains Sedans/Station wagons wanting to go faster, of the ''slow'' car in front of the train gets out of the way it usually means you have trains of 10-20 cars easily doing 150-160 km/h when they can. It actually gets worse with more traffic, in low traffic most people tend to drive relaxed, when it's starting to get congested suddenly everyone wants to be faster...

Last edited by snowdog; October 16th, 2012 at 02:07 AM.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #112
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Highways in the more dense northeast and a few random other states are at 105 kph. A majority of the country is around 112-120kph.

Regardless of where I am in the country though most people don't tend to drive slower than 120kph. When I drive around the Midwest it's usually 120-130 as the average speed of traffic with a few slower cars and a few faster.

When I do a drives in more rural areas I always see at least one or two cars going by at 160.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 08:25 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Maybe Bavaria is just an exception.
Bavaria is lagging behind on this trend but it starts catching on here too. We'll see it getting worse as the economy declines and communities try to stay above water.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #114
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Should we outlaw all trucks from the motorways, then?
I would if I had a say. Freight belongs on trains, at least when it's long distance. It's way more economic when you consider wear of infrastructure into the bill which is usually conveniently forgotten by pro trucking advocates.

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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
And even if the problem is "cars going too slow",
The problem isn't cars going too fast or slow, the problem is people not paying attention. And the slower they go the more they try to occupy themselves with other things like texting, watching a DVD on their iPod etc. There's research that the majority of accidents here in Germany in the past few years was actually caused by people distracted because of fiddling around with their electronic gear (cell phone, navi, mp3 player, you name it).


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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
not a constantly guaranteeable fail-safe condition (in other words, that's shit that will always happen).
There's a German proverb for this which unfortunately doesn't translate into English very well, "Das Kind mit dem Bad ausschütten". It basically means that in order to do a good thing you sometimes do more damage than the good thing does. I think that by constantly lowering and limiting individual traffic you create a dependency on signs. People stop thinking for themselves. They drive 120 because the sign says so, not because they realize that traffic demands it. I don't want to live in a World where people follow signs blindly and stop thinking for themselves, do you ?


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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I don't know why this kind of discussions always gets personal. Why the fact that I don't like the idea of cars allowed to go faster than 130 means that I have a "shortcoming" in driving skills? I'm way better in "fast driving" than most drivers... and THAT is why I don't like the idea of allowing it as an everyday experience, because I know what it takes to do it seriously and safely.
That was a plural "you", not a personal one. I see where one could've misunderstood that and I apologize, I should've worded that more carefully, especially on a forum with many who do not have English as their native language.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 09:56 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Stahlsturm View Post
....The problem isn't cars going too fast or slow, the problem is people not paying attention. And the slower they go the more they try to occupy themselves with other things like texting, watching a DVD on their iPod etc. There's research that the majority of accidents here in Germany in the past few years was actually caused by people distracted because of fiddling around with their electronic gear (cell phone, navi, mp3 player, you name it).
Is texting, using the phone, etc., legal there? It's banned more and more places in the U.S. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would think texting while driving would be doable....

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There's a German proverb for this which unfortunately doesn't translate into English very well, "Das Kind mit dem Bad ausschütten"....
"Throw the baby out with the bath water"? Common expression, actually.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 10:39 AM   #116
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Is texting, using the phone, etc., legal there? It's banned more and more places in the U.S. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would think texting while driving would be doable.....
I don't know about the rest of Europe but it's banned in Germany. Not that the fine keeps anyone from doing it anyways and then there's navis and various music devices. Distraction is a bit and growing problem.

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"Throw the baby out with the bath water"? Common expression, actually.
Ah So it does work in English then
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Old October 16th, 2012, 05:27 PM   #117
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Calling (without hand-free devices) and texting while driving is illegal everywhere in Europe nowadays. Strangely, other dangerous activities such changing GPS, radio or heating/cooling settings, smoking or eating aren't explicitaly banned by law (but may fall under the definition of reckless driving if you have an accident).
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Old October 16th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #118
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There's a difference between changing a radio station or the heating setting and texting....
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Old October 16th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #119
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There's a difference between changing a radio station or the heating setting and texting....
Not so much if you browse the entire CD content reading 20 tracks' names on the display. Or if you type your destination on your GPS unit and look carefully at the map. Maybe calling (but not texting) is even safer sice it impairs only a hand but not eyes.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 16th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #120
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I'm talking about hitting one button to change the radio station. I really don't consider that "dangerous" and any legislature that put that in the same class as texting would be just saying "don't take us seriously." And I don't have a GPS. :-)
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