Questions about Iraq

[Partiya_Rast]

Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir

well partiya-rast. what can I say... de-nile is not just a river in africa. Since you're so completely oblivious to the actual facts and completely deny the economic split in Iraq there's really very little I can do.

It seems the KRG supporters believe 100% what the masta says, and really never question what their spokesmen and media tell them. So until you acquire the will to look for the truth no matter what public statements are made by "my gang" "your gang" then you simply won't be able to debate, as its just a copy-paste of KRG propaganda.

needless to say that pretty much every line of defence you wrote about the KRG above is nonsense. If you wish I can break it down to you, do let me know if you are.

PS. just in case you accuse me of being an "arab apologist" or "arab propagandist" do have a read through my comments about the lies told by the "baghdad government" all over the threads here. so just because I take to account the KRG government and the "media" on some of the more outrageous claims they make, I do exactly the same about Baghdad... (and I hope you do so too!)

Take it easy, I did not accuse you of anything nor am I a KRG-supporter, it seems you make suggestions that only run through your own mind.

I just do not swallow how you blame the mismanagement of Baghdads gov, despite their geographic/political advantages, on others. You like to display the relative Kurdish success as a product of "Arab solidarity" and "Kurdish arrogance". That is sadly very weak, we do not need to start the usual Arab-Kurd rift because one area is making more progress than the other. PS: I observe Iraq with my own eyes and reliable sources within Iraq. I do not need "objective" Iraqi media outlets.

[sheytanElKebir]

Originally Posted by Partiya_Rast

Take it easy, I did not accuse you of anything nor am I a KRG-supporter, it seems you make suggestions that only run through your own mind.

I just do not swallow how you blame the mismanagement of Baghdads gov, despite their geographic/political advantages, on others. You like to display the relative Kurdish success as a product of "Arab solidarity" and "Kurdish arrogance". That is sadly very weak, we do not need to start the usual Arab-Kurd rift because one area is making more progress than the other. PS: I observe Iraq with my own eyes and reliable sources within Iraq. I do not need "objective" Iraqi media outlets.

You are putting words into my mouth. If you deny the difference in income allocation, that is up to you. I did not, and never will, cover up any wrongdoing or inefficiencies by anyone in Iraq (and if you re-read my post on the matter you will see it clearly there). But the massive disparity in allocation of state revenues towards KRG is right there. if you choose to deny it. your problem.


I will answer your points.

Originally Posted by Partiya_Rast

Does it? It actually does not get a dime from the oil money that Baghdad receives. Even the money collected from the recently found wells in Kurdistan ,which have been set up with KRG's budget, comes into the hands of Shahristanis ministry.

Do tell, where does the KRG's 17% comes from? Also the KRG wells production is not going anywhere, since KRG gave so much % to the companies and Baghdad will simply not pay the companies the money that KRG promised them! Imagine, KRG promises some money to X, and then goes to baghdad and tells them, I promised to pay X this much money, Baghdad you go pay them... you tell me how right that is...

This is not entirely true. The 17% portion is taken from a different source of allocated income. Also, non-Kurdistani Iraqis settling in Kurdistan do get benefits from the KRG unlike vice versa.


ALL KRG's 17% comes from BAGHDAD. How does it not receive a dime?? Please tell me where that 17% comes from. I would be fascinated to know


I doubt that outdated number (13%) very much. The KRG has a lot of disadvantages compared to the rest of Iraq. For instance the KRG population/area ratio (density) is much more negative compared to non-KRG Iraq which means much more is being spent on infrastructure per capita in the KRG-territories. And the Kurdish area is mountainious and rugged, whereas Arab Iraq has the advantage that the population is settled near the rivers. Also, the KRG spends the money on a larger area than the 3 provinces (with Baghdads knowledge).

The numbers for KRG are the same accuracy as the numbers for the rest of Iraq. Also KRG does NOT have the lowest population density in Iraq, Anbar, Najaf, Muthanna all have lower population densities. and finally, the "arab areas" had you ever seen them, have a very complex hydraulic system of canals, dams and water regulators that cost a lot more than roads cost in KRG.


Again, inaccurate numbers (pop. figures date from decades ago). If what you say is right, the non-KRG inhabitants (around 78-80%) receive 99% of the oil income of Iraq. Even if so, I do not believe this would be the binding factor of the income contrast.

Same inaccurate population figures for the rest of Iraq... they are all based on the same census + ration programme data... so how is KRG being slighted? as for the 99% of oil income... what are you smoking?? where does the 17% KRG money comes from? the moon? also on top of the 17% the KRG shares in and takes money, and services from the 83% for the rest of Iraq's population... KRG gets funded to have 2 parliaments, the one in KRG paid from 17% and the parliamentarians and ministers from KRG in baghdad getting their millions from the rest of Iraq's 83%. are you denying all this? KRG gets 17% of money... then it receives fuel and electricity and services from baghdad from the 83% for the rest of iraq. are you denying this?? what about the kurdish ministers in baghdad... who use the 83% of the budget "for arab areas" to have projects in kurdistan, like the municipalities minister (instead of cleaning up baghdad, which is her job, she spends money on kurdistan... which already HAS a budget for cleaning), similarly the environment minister in baghdad or the foreign minister who sets up "kurdish cultural offices" at baghdad's expense around the world. All those things should be paid from KRG money... but they are funded from baghdad's 83%.


I think these points make much more sense than the few dollars made at border points. Security is the most important key in building a stable and working economy, attracting foreign companies and recovering the brain drain (from which Arab Iraq is still suffering). Red tape is also much more prevalent and severe in Arab Iraq than in Kurdistan.

I agree, KRG is safe and doing business there (in some sectors) is easier than Iraq. This encourages a lot of investment by kurds abroad, foreign companies, and iraqis escaping from baghdad! 100% agreed! and I am very happy and proud that Iraqis are investing in Kurdistan rather than jordan or syria or Dubai.

Agree on KRG's nature on doing business. However, nowadays there are much more telecommunication providers in Kurdistan than those two. Internet providers are popping up, there is competition now in a lot of sectors. Besides, you could have flown from Erbil to Sulaimani in 2005, whereas you could not from Baghdad to Basra (at the time).

You could fly from basra to baghdad in 2005... in fact did it in 2004. also you can travel around 15 provinces of Iraq with a single simcard and local call to all provinces... this was already in place in 2004... just shows the "dual mafia" structure of KRG will eventually bog it down.



Do you really think Kirkuk is of that importance to the Kurdish economy, after not having benefited from its oil (while Baghdad had/has since 2003) and experienced already such an economic boom? The pros and cons of Iraqi Kurdish independence are not so different for both sides, after all it is an approx. 500,000 non-KRG inhabitants that have taken residence in the KRG since 2003. Not vice versa.

KRG receives a dispropotionate amount of oil from Iraq and kirkuk is a declining field with little importance. it is of little importance to anyone BUT KRG. KRGs economic boom was based on three items: receiving double the budget of the arabs overall + safe environment for foreign companies + kurdish emmigrants bringing inward economic investment (real estate mostly). The key driver was always the increased budget. Of course the stolen cars and machinery from baghdad during the hawasim also helped kick start things in 2003... and I still remember going with the ministry staff to KRG to try and recover some stolen equipment from baghdad to be told "these are now Kurdish property, we need it for our future country, finders keepers". Is that teh way for a ministry to behave? openly engaging in LOOTING, and afterwards being unashamed about it? we all know the "car numbers" in suly and erbil from the hawasim cars... not to mention power generators, machinery, and whatever else could be carried off in 2003 was carried off... the "market" in baghdad in betawiyeen was where the loot was sorted and carried off... but you knew that already.

Yes there are a lots of points I agree with, but it's not as easy and simple as you picture it. Take care and salaam

[baghdad_sara]

Okay so i have a question on Iraq's property law.

So the situation is as follows, prior to being FORCED to flee to Iran by Saddam and co, a man who is brother to my aunt's husband had property in Baghdad, it was under his father's name who passed away so naturally the property passed down to him and his brother (it was a joint tenancy). Of course being left no choice but to go next door, and unbeknown to him while he was in Iran, the house was later occupied by an Iraqi - named "X" - who falsely signed papers claiming that this is his house and presented it to the authorities (this all happened during Saddams regime). So now by law, "X" has claimed the property as his and this stands to be the case to this day.

It was only until this man had gone back to Iraq after the fall of Saddam to find his home in the hands of a stranger. So my question is, does he have a chance to regain his property, does the fact that he was forced to flee by the previous regime give him any bargaining power?

Personally i cannot believe people have no compassion, this man so happens to be blind, unmarried and co-dependant on his brother and my aunt and while trying to reason with "X" he is getting no where. Although "X" has admittedly confessed after stealing his property he has been "struck" with bad luck, he has lost close relatives and he himself was imprisoned by the Americans, so now he has told the man that he is willing to sell the house. This is absolutely disgusting and i would like someone who know's the Iraqi legal system pretty well on how this case will be attributed?

[baghdad_sara]

BigDreamer can you please make this thread sticky since it took me a while to find it and will help other forumers too, thank you.

[kurd123]

To be honest I think the local authority will make up whatever law they want depending on who pays more bribes..

as for the standard law, I don't know.

[baghdad_sara]

Yes i thought the same, i am not so optimistic anymore about those practising the law.

[sheytanElKebir]

Don't listen to Kurd123, that's not true. No local authority can "make up a law", and this sort of thing is ruled by the Tapu office and the Judiciary, not any "local" authority.

Yes you can reclaim your property but you have to go to court and have the original documents with you (including evidence that you were deported). If you can also record the voice of X admitting the truth. its a bonus. Contact a good lawyer to help you, relatives there would be able to help you find one.

It may take a while, but its certainly possible.

Another route would be to go to the local Sadrist movement or Badr Organisation office. They can also try and "convince" X to vacate. This would certainly be quicker and cost you nothing.

We have a similar problem with the government who took possession of some of our lands in the 1970s, and are pursuing it in court!

But previously we had some people who took over our house in Adhamiya and refused to leave. We pursued it in court and got them out! The police evicted them with a court order.

Be careful though, X might try a "nasty" revenge by "paying" some "rent" to you directly to the court. Do not accept this, as accepting it means that you accept that X stayed in your house legaly and makes you liable to 30+ years worth of property taxes (causing the house to be repossessed by the tax authorities!) - our very own X tried this trick but we didn't fall for it.

Overall cost to us about $300 in court fees, lawyer fees (he was a relative and didnt charge us).

[baghdad_sara]

Thank you Sheytan for the information. Glad to know it worked out for you, im hoping the same goes for this situation. I cant believe those people went as far as to try tricking you, its truly shocking

[BigDreamer]

Originally Posted by baghdad_sara

BigDreamer can you please make this thread sticky since it took me a while to find it and will help other forumers too, thank you.

certainly. I'll also move it to the main page.. the questions on this thread are very informative and so are the answers !

[B-Patriot]

So the new capital of Iraqi Kurdistan is Erbil? and the old one is Suleimaniya?

If so, when did it change? and was there any particular reason?

[kurd123]

Originally Posted by B-Patriot

So the new capital of Iraqi Kurdistan is Erbil? and the old one is Suleimaniya?

If so, when did it change? and was there any particular reason?

The capital of Iraqi kurdistan has always been erbil, at least officially.. but in the 90's after due to some very stupid reasons when the PUK and KDP ruled separate areas of Kurdistan, suleymanya was the capital of PUK controlled area. But now off course the capital is Erbil.

[BigDreamer]

Originally Posted by elusive

definition of me3dan: low socioeconomic people with no taste. lol

I always thought that was the actual Arabic meaning of that word as well.. until i found out it's an actual ethnicity in iraq... if this was anywhere else, it would be considered a racial slur.. lol.. but it's been used for so long, I don't think lots of people realise it.

[sheytanElKebir]

Mi'dan are the natives of Iraq's southern marshes and not a "low socio economic" group. These people and lifestyle are the last remnants of indigenous cultures dating back to the Sumerian era. But of course baghdadis denigrate them (and eventually wiped them out) just like what other "civilised countries" did to native cultures...

[BigDreamer]

Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir

Mi'dan are the natives of Iraq's southern marshes and not a "low socio economic" group. These people and lifestyle are the last remnants of indigenous cultures dating back to the Sumerian era. But of course baghdadis denigrate them (and eventually wiped them out) just like what other "civilised countries" did to native cultures...

They are ! I didn't know that at all.. I assumed it was just another ethnicity that we have, had no idea they are decedents of Sumerians. how sad

I've stopped using the term after I learned what it really meant anyways..

lot s of iraqis use the term "shroogi" as another derogatory term, does it also have another meaning relating to ethnicity etc?

[elusive]

the word is now used to denote what i said above, most words originate from some other meaning/concept anyway...

[sheytanElKebir]

Originally Posted by elusive

the word is now used to denote what i said above, most words originate from some other meaning/concept anyway...

no. that's simply not true. the ma'dan were attacked and dehumanised prior to their demise/assimilation/killing. The association of the word "me'dan" with "low class" is itself a denigration. Would you like it if "baghdadi" became the new nickname for "prostitute"?

Let me illustrate with one example:
"I visited amsterdam, and saw loads of baghdadis in the windows of the red light district. This one red headed baghdadi was OK, but she was too expensive, so i chose some asia looking baghdadi instead. I prefer the brothel baghdadis to the street walkers because the baghdadis on the street are dirty with STDs".

See?

Originally Posted by BigDreamer

They are ! I didn't know that at all.. I assumed it was just another ethnicity that we have, had no idea they are decedents of Sumerians. how sad

I've stopped using the term after I learned what it really meant anyways..

lot s of iraqis use the term "shroogi" as another derogatory term, does it also have another meaning relating to ethnicity etc?

"Shroogi" literal meaning is "from east of the euphrates" It is specifically a reference to people from Kut and Amarah. However in the "modern use" it has become a general derogatory term about shias, and nowadays anyone who is poor, dressed shabily etc is called a "shroogi" by sunni arabs and christians (another example of a perfectly normal term, being used for racial denigration in a very generalised manner).

[MrIraq]

no actually , i just rememberd mi3dan are thoes ppl who work in farms and make like dairy milk and cheese and stuff like that, generally coming from the south, places like nassriya and simawa.

they also talk funny, like they say agilak, not agollak, and they use the term cha, before many sentences, and many other funny words,, honeslty they are easy to identify, if u know what i mean.

btw, then what are shrooq? شروك؟

[elusive]

it's STI's now not STD's and thanks for the analogy, im not condoning it...i wasn't the one who made this association. i think its wrong on many levels but a person in a modern context saying m3edi does not think about the original meaning.

[sheytanElKebir]

Originally Posted by MrIraq

no actually , i just rememberd mi3dan are thoes ppl who work in farms and make like dairy milk and cheese and stuff like that, generally coming from the south, places like nassriya and simawa.

you are wrong. The people who "work on farms" are simply "felahin" unless they are from the marshes (me'dan). So whilst a small minority of people in Samawa and Nassiriya are indeed "mi'dan" (i mean they are from the marshes), they are a tiny minority, and most of the felahin are not mi'dan.

they also talk funny, like they say agilak, not agollak, and they use the term cha, before many sentences, and many other funny words,, honeslty they are easy to identify, if u know what i mean.

Basrawis use the exact same words. This is simply the southern Iraqi accent and has nothing to do with Mi'dan who are distinct group of people living (historically) exclusively within the marshes of Iraq.

btw, then what are shrooq? شروك؟

I already explained above.


The terms "mi'dan" and "shroog" have become derogatory words in modern baghdad and the sunni-arab parts of Iraq and was simply the social part of the "racial-superiority" agenda of Iraq's previous sunni-arab dominated governments.

[MrIraq]

Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir

you are wrong. The people who "work on farms" are simply "felahin" unless they are from the marshes (me'dan). So whilst a small minority of people in Samawa and Nassiriya are indeed "mi'dan" (i mean they are from the marshes), they are a tiny minority, and most of the felahin are not mi'dan.



Basrawis use the exact same words. This is simply the southern Iraqi accent and has nothing to do with Mi'dan who are distinct group of people living (historically) exclusively within the marshes of Iraq.



I already explained above.


The terms "mi'dan" and "shroog" have become derogatory words in modern baghdad and the sunni-arab parts of Iraq and was simply the social part of the "racial-superiority" agenda of Iraq's previous sunni-arab dominated governments.

thanks encyclopedia